LFS going extinct?

[ralph atl]

Skriz;916552 wrote: You do realize that Amazon sells TONS of goods at wholesale COST or near cost, right? No LFS can or should sell goods at cost; not if they want to stay in business, that is. Saying that you'd be "fooled" and accusing the LFS of robbing you is a foolish statement. A more accurate statement would be that you robbed Amazon or you got a super deal at Amazon; that doesn't automatically mean the lfs was ripping you off.

Amazon sells so many items in a day, it's mind boggling. There was one day they reported selling 306 items per second. SECOND. Just think about that for a minute. If they only made $1 per item, they'd clear over $26 million dollars net sales that day. But now we're getting off track!

There was a time that you & I agreed online was king lol....maybe 5 years ago?

except for gfo, calcium carbonate & the like, in the last 4-5 years I have gone back to the lfs......

and almost all my fish & coral come from either Kevin Kohen or Raj (Jeremy & Sea).....

food, salt, etc from Aviarium........

:up:

 

[snowmansnow]

leveldrummer;916558 wrote: I can understand buying drygoods and equipment online, but buying livestock is just outrageous! The price might be a tiny bit cheaper then in stores, but shipping is insane!

some complain about a 50 dollar frogspawn frag, but if you buy a 20 dollar frogspawn frag online, its 40 bucks to overnight the dang thing! Im happy to buy frags that I can afford locally, and I buy all my fish in LFS, I have yet to find a coral that I wanted so bad that I would order online, usually I will post here and many members will offer frags. or if Im not looking for a very specific coral, Ill go to the LFS and grab what ever really speaks to me.

For those of us that are NO WHERE close to ANYTHING online is the only option :/ There is a fish store about 40 miles from here, but when I asked if they carried pumps for a bubble king skimmer they replied "whats a skimmer?". As far as livestock goes online can be reasonable. Most places have a spend X amount and get free shipping deal... Ordering just one $40 fish or coral wouldn't be wise

Edit: to add to the above, I don't think LFS are going extinct any faster than other retailers are...

 

[hzheng33]

Skriz;916552 wrote: You do realize that Amazon sells TONS of goods at wholesale COST or near cost, right? No LFS can or should sell goods at cost; not if they want to stay in business, that is. Saying that you'd be "fooled" and accusing the LFS of robbing you is a foolish statement. A more accurate statement would be that you robbed Amazon or you got a super deal at Amazon; that doesn't automatically mean the lfs was ripping you off.

Amazon sells so many items in a day, it's mind boggling. There was one day they reported selling 306 items per second. SECOND. Just think about that for a minute. If they only made $1 per item, they'd clear over $26 million dollars net sales that day. But now we're getting off track!

yes i understand that. but the fact that the lfs charges 50% mark-up for a item that i can get for better price, i think my wallet will thank me. i didn't say i don't support the lfs, i'm only pointing out that there's a point where it's just logical to get something elsewhere. would you buy a house or car with a 50%mark up? i'm not sure about you, but i certainly don't have the wallet for it. amazon sells the ATO for $70, DrFoster&Smith sells it for $80, BRS sells it for $80, the lfs on I85 sells for $100, and this lfs sells it for $120. which one do you think a reasonable person wouldn't pick from the list? would i not be a fool to pick the one that sells it for $120?

i understand that the lfs have to bills, but the fact of matter is how much you're willing to pay for something to support your local community store before turning to other venues just because someone has a guilt for not supporting the lfs. it's different from person to person, but at least at the end of the day i can claim that i do get most of my stuffs from the lfs with the caveat that i do price research before or while visiting the shop.

 

[skriz]

mysterybox;916563 wrote: There was a time that you & I agreed online was king lol....maybe 5 years ago?

except for gfo, calcium carbonate & the like, in the last 4-5 years I have gone back to the lfs......

and almost all my fish & coral come from either Kevin Kohen or Raj (Jeremy & Sea).....

food, salt, etc from Aviarium........

:up:

Nope. Very little for my tank was bought online. And what did come from an etailer only did so after the lfs said no!

It's funny, they said no to a pallet of salt, pallet of sand, etc. This was almost a decade ago, so maybe things were different then?

Edit:

hzheng33;916572 wrote: yes i understand that. but the fact that the lfs charges 50% mark-up for a item that i can get for better price, i think my wallet will thank me. i didn't say i don't support the lfs, i'm only pointing out that there's a point where it's just logical to get something elsewhere. would you buy a house or car with a 50%mark up? i'm not sure about you, but i certainly don't have the wallet for it. amazon sells the ATO for $70, DrFoster&Smith sells it for $80, BRS sells it for $80, the lfs on I85 sells for $100, and this lfs sells it for $120. which one do you think a reasonable person wouldn't pick from the list? would i not be a fool to pick the one that sells it for $120?

i understand that the lfs have to bills, but the fact of matter is how much you're willing to pay for something to support your local community store before turning to other venues just because someone has a guilt for not supporting the lfs. it's different from person to person, but at least at the end of the day i can claim that i do get most of my stuffs from the lfs with the caveat that i do price research before or while visiting the shop.

He stores that have it for $100 & $120 aren't ripping you off, though and that's what you've stated.

I buy batteries which have a 500% + markup, so yes, I would and do! I pay more at a store for the service, knowledge, & convinience (I can leave with it in hand). I bought my tv from frys rather than online because I have someone to "sell" me the tv amd I know they'll be there if something goes wrong. I don't feel like I'm paying more for the product. I'm paying for all the other services attached. So, if the lfs takes the time to go over the product, guide you through the setup, etc. then they have provided something greater than a website did. The store also gave you the chance to see and feel the product before buying. They also gave you instant gratification. That all comes at a cost.

 

[ralph atl]

Skriz;916576 wrote: Nope. Very little for my tank was bought online. And what did come from an etailer only did so after the lfs said no!

.

at one time, I believe you were all about buying livestock from Kevin Kohen, too.....of course, I could be mistaken, as memory is well, somewhat memory now, lol.....

 

[jennm]

What do you think the clothing store, the furniture store, the grocery store, the widget store, pays for its merchandise, versus what they sell it for?

The LFS is not unique. It's a retail store. Retailers buy for X, sell for Y. In fact, you might be surprised just how much MORE markup there is on some everyday items you buy all the time, versus what the selling entity pays for them.

For over 10 years I've seen threads like this, and everyone is outraged at the LFS markup on this, that or the other. Yet they never question what they paid for their clothing, food, automobile, electronic toys, tools, and everything else. Can anyone explain that one to me?

Ever haggle over price at Walmart? I didn't think so...

I'll go one further. Think about what you do for a living. You receive compensation - salary or commission, or hourly wage. How do you think that comes to be? Your employer sells a product(s) or service(s), and charges the customer a fee for that. Out of the combined total of fees collected, he/she has to pay his/her operating costs, and your compensation. The business has to charge enough of a price for what they sell, to cover all of that, and hopefully, at the end of the day, have a bit left for the owner/partners/shareholders.

It's Capitalism 101. Nobody much in fish forums, seems to equate this same principal to anything other than the LFS.

Jenn

 

[redstang]

JennM;916598 wrote: What do you think the clothing store, the furniture store, the grocery store, the widget store, pays for its merchandise, versus what they sell it for?

The LFS is not unique. It's a retail store. Retailers buy for X, sell for Y. In fact, you might be surprised just how much MORE markup there is on some everyday items you buy all the time, versus what the selling entity pays for them.

For over 10 years I've seen threads like this, and everyone is outraged at the LFS markup on this, that or the other. Yet they never question what they paid for their clothing, food, automobile, electronic toys, tools, and everything else. Can anyone explain that one to me?

Ever haggle over price at Walmart? I didn't think so...

Jenn

Tend to agree here. I do shop around for all goods, not just fish stuff though. Try to buy on sales too.

There are exceptions to every rule but for the most part I try to support LFS. I've gotten excellent service at all the sponsors I've been to. That matters to me. I think the guys at Pure Reef at least recognize me when I walk in now which is only once every other month or so. And if I have questions they always take the time to answer fully. Same thing the couple of times I was able to make it the haul up to Jenn's store. In fact, my experience is that we get much better service from LFS' than we do from most any other local retail store.

Now for electronics I gave up on B&M's a while back. Tend to buy most electronics through Amazon and with prime it's not instant gratification but it's very close. Got tired of lackluster service at places like Best Buy and Circuit City. I also try to avoid Walmart. On occasion I can get lucky and get someone who cares but for the most part their employees tend to act like they can't be bothered to help you. Or maybe I have an ignore me please sign on my back :loll:.

 

[jennm]

Many manufacturers - across the board, not just "fish stuff" have forsaken their retailers and sell directly to the public. Either on their own, or through drop shippers who do the legwork to sell the items, and they just fill the orders and send 'em out.

Not too long ago, if retailers caught wind of this practice, they'd dump the product line. Nowadays, if a retailer did that, they'd have precious few offerings left for their customers.

Catch-22. The retailers are what made brands into household names. Now, the manufacturers cut the retailer out of the loop, and that is why anybody can buy pretty much anything at wholesale cost if they shop online. A drop-shipper can work from home in his pajamas, never carry inventory, never pay for a space to store the stuff, just collect orders and forward them for fulfillment. They make a tiny fraction of profit per item, and at that point it's all about volume.

Service? Good luck with that.

Pandora's box is open - it's not likely to change now. It just makes it a lot harder for an honest retailer to thrive. Survive? Yep, it's doable, but gone are the days when a retailer could corner a market in anything.

Jenn

 

[grouper therapy]

Ignorant perceptions of reality are concentrated in intellectual tunnels.

 

[hzheng33]

it's Capitalism 101 alright. the reason why people don't haggle prices over at Walmart or other stores is mainly because we've no idea what it costs to make the product and all the processes that's included in getting the product on the shelve. for instance, i don't believe for once that just because Express is having a 50% off every single item on Black Friday that they're losing money. they have got the most ingenious marketing director in my opinion when it comes to pricing their goods. if you can get some guidance or pointers on a product in a lfs with some mark-ups tagged on, i understand. but my question and statement to anyone out there is how much are you willing to absorb the mark-up vs doing a thorough research on the product's functionality and price. it's capitalism that if you can find a item at a better price you choose to go to the seller with that price.

my livestock, like i stated before, usually comes from the lfs because there's no way that online retailers can mimic the in-person experience that the lfs can offer. i certainly don't see lfs going extinct. for those lfs that value customers i, for one, will support and help them as much as i can to prevent them going out of business.

 

[skriz]

JennM;916604 wrote: Many manufacturers - across the board, not just "fish stuff" have forsaken their retailers and sell directly to the public. Either on their own, or through drop shippers who do the legwork to sell the items, and they just fill the orders and send 'em out.

Not too long ago, if retailers caught wind of this practice, they'd dump the product line. Nowadays, if a retailer did that, they'd have precious few offerings left for their customers.

Catch-22. The retailers are what made brands into household names. Now, the manufacturers cut the retailer out of the loop, and that is why anybody can buy pretty much anything at wholesale cost if they shop online. A drop-shipper can work from home in his pajamas, never carry inventory, never pay for a space to store the stuff, just collect orders and forward them for fulfillment. They make a tiny fraction of profit per item, and at that point it's all about volume.

Service? Good luck with that.

Pandora's box is open - it's not likely to change now. It just makes it a lot harder for an honest retailer to thrive. Survive? Yep, it's doable, but gone are the days when a retailer could corner a market in anything.

Jenn

YES!

hzheng33;916607 wrote: it's Capitalism 101 alright. the reason why people don't haggle prices over at Walmart or other stores is mainly because we've no idea what it costs to make the product and all the processes that's included in getting the product on the shelve. for instance, i don't believe for once that just because Express is having a 50% off every single item on Black Friday that they're losing money. they have got the most ingenious marketing director in my opinion when it comes to pricing their goods. if you can get some guidance or pointers on a product in a lfs with some mark-ups tagged on, i understand. but my question and statement to anyone out there is how much are you willing to absorb the mark-up vs doing a thorough research on the product's functionality and price. it's capitalism that if you can find a item at a better price you choose to go to the seller with that price.

my livestock, like i stated before, usually comes from the lfs because there's no way that online retailers can mimic the in-person experience that the lfs can offer. i certainly don't see lfs going extinct. for those lfs that value customers i, for one, will support and help them as much as i can to prevent them going out of business.

The same applies at the lfs: you have no idea what it costs to make the product and all the processes that's included including getting the product on the shelf.

But at least you've conceded that if you use the lfs for an item, then you ought to buy that item from them.

For years I saw people abuse Jenn. They bought online and then ran to her with warranty help, troubleshooting, etc. That's just wrong. I'm sure this happens at other places, but she was just the most visible on the forums.

 

[jennm]

Oh there were times when I didn't offer help with that online item. Sometimes I chose to help because it earned their future business.

I've even seen local brick and mortars refuse to help with a warranty issue on items purchased in their own store - and I've helped quite a few with that. Nothing ticks a customer off more than the fact that they "shopped local" for that reason - after-sales support, and then they were told outright that it wasn't the store's problem.

I loved helping those folks out Others' attitudes like that was great for my business.

I don't consider it abuse, Raj. It's only abuse if I allow myself to be taken advantage of. I don't feel that I was - I had the good sense to say no if I thought there was no benefit to me. Usually my reaching out and going the extra step, earned somebody's business, so yeah there was a bit of selfishness in there. I actually enjoy helping people (that's why I'm still here.)

Jenn

 

[bulkrate]

JennM -

I recall you doing exactly that (the helping part) back about 2 years ago - you sourced not one but 2 replacement glass tops in a row for an Eheim 9-gallon that kept arriving cracked due to the manufacturer's inexplicable decision to package the tank on top of the lid instead of the other way around.

Pretty much guaranteed that I'd make a 30-40 minute trip up SR140 about once a month out of customer loyalty alone, let alone the decent pricing on drygoods. It was appreciated!

 

[jennm]

I think I sold you the tank originally though, yes? Serving the customer after the sale is a given - or at least it should be.

I helped plenty of folks who bought stuff "elsewhere" (either another store, or online), who had problems they couldn't get resolved otherwise.

Jenn

 

[brandonmason]

Jenn who are you kidding you've helped most of us in some form.... maybe not directly but with your knowledge contributed to this forum makes for quick references when doing a little research.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 2

 

[jennm]

Thanks I enjoy it - that's why I do it.

But back to the topic...

There are always going to be price shoppers, and service shoppers. As long as there are people who see the value in an in-person transaction, or want it *right now*, etc., there will always be brick and mortars.

Etail has changed the dynamic, and it's not going to go away, that's for sure, but I don't see "extinction" for retail aquarium shops.

Jenn

 

[axio]

Phew! This thread was a great read for me. Took me a few days to get through it all. I'm very glad to see most of the responses leaning towards supporting the LFS. My favorite reason so far has been the fact that most people wouldn't have even started the hobby if they hadn't stepped into a LFS at some point to make them see something that started them on this ridiculously addictive and dangerous hobby =)

I did notice that a lot of the people not shopping at local stores because of a bad experience or bad fish replacement policy. In my opinion if a LFS isn't doing everything in their power to fix an issue a customer being having... then they don't deserve the business or to stay open anyway. Just like Jenn and some of the other sponsors have metioned, LFS have to change and get with the times, above all else offer outstanding customer service no matter the situation.

 

[frag freak]

There will always be brick and morter stores... Why?

There will always be a rash of people that like to get an item in front of them or in their hands that they are interested in and "consume" the product.

Online can't compete with that bracket.

I buy a lot from other reefers , part at lfs on impulse and the rest online if I can't find what I need or get anxious. Jmo.

A ton of great posts here.. Great thread.

 

[iifeainteasy]

this hobby is too complicated for beginners IMO. too many variables with fish and coral to scare away or even waste money of new aquarium hobbyist. Also, every fish store i went to i explained to them my setup was only 1 week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, old... but everyone still sold me fish and coral as if they didnt care. Not saying its their fault or they were trying to sabotage my tank. i think they cared for the sale more than the longevity of a customer in the hobby. Same with equipment. LFS wanted me to buy a LED light from them at $$$. when a sales rep WHISPERED that i can go on ebay and get chinese LEDs for cheap. thats the type of info i need. to keep me in this hobby. this hobby just takes alot of research and money to be successful. and for newcomers on a budget. most cant afford LFS so we use the internet and save 20-40%. i never bought livestock due to shipping cost. But my lighting and skimmer were from ebay. LFS should fear chain stores like petco more. their prices on fish are quite cheap. $20/$40 on clowns while LFS sells them for $30/$100. LFS keep a larger variety of fish and coral. but most arent for beginners. so i recommend petco for livestock and coral because its just cheaper basically. i love my LFS and go to 3 different ones often. another issue i had was with "ich" no one informed of a QT tank when i first got into the hobby. no one informed me of the long cycle period with no fish or coral. so first week i bought fish and coral. and had to start over my whole setup and do things correctly. now after 2342343 hours of youtube videos and reading forums. i feel i know the BASICS of SW keeping.

 

[sn4k33y3z]

I think the majority of people that have been in this hobby will tell you, buying livestock from Petco is not even an option. Every SW section I've ever fewed from them has always been poorly maintained an unattractive. I'll spend more money with a brick and morter, due to the care that goes into their livestock. Sure, the deals can be had on the internet, but when your in a crunch a need something like yesterday, it sure is nice to have those options. And for that reason I spend a little more with the local guys.

You spend all the time in the world expaining "your system", but no two system are alike. Far as recommending a fish in week 1, 2 or 3... not likely, but my question tou would have been : Is your cycle finshed and what are your plans for your tank...