Has anyone ordered from Live Aquaria's "Divers Den" before? I read that they QT these fish more in this category. What is everyone experience with it?
live aquaria divers den
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I think "more" QT is a good way of saying it. It isn't a "full" QT, but it is more than going from wholesalers straight to you without any checks. I've had mostly good luck with them, and a little DOA bad luck, which they fixed promptly. I especially like buying their "bonded pairs". I have pairs of clowns, filefish and gobies. The pairs are interesting in the tank and I've had fewer problems acclimating them than singles. I think they are not so stressed by the new environment because they have "each other". My luck with them has been good enough that I don't QT when I order from them like I do with other places.
I was reading on there site and they said if it comes from the "divers den" part of there site they go through more QT process than there normal process.
Well, what’s their qt process at the divers den?
it could be as simple as holding for 2 weeks (with or without med) and then ship them to to you versus ship them directly from the wholesaler to you.
either or, I wouldn’t trust it but if it buys you some peace then go for it.
With QT its all or nothing really. All being about a 3 to 4 week regimen with treatment for parasites, worms, flukes, ich, velvet, etc then an observation period to confirm effectiveness. All done in a controlled environment free of contamination. I can tell you very few online retailers abide by that standard.
If you read their material it does appear to be "better" than nothing. But really its like removing 1 of 2 bullets from the revolver playing russian roulette. You are still risking everything anytime you pull the trigger.
If you read their material it does appear to be "better" than nothing. But really its like removing 1 of 2 bullets from the revolver playing russian roulette. You are still risking everything anytime you pull the trigger.
I've read far more horror stories than success stories from people who have recently bought from them.
You probably won't hear success stories, because people only post when things go wrong.
I'd love to find an online retailer or LFS that does a full quarantine and has a good selection of fish at reasonable prices, but as far as I know, that doesn't exist. We had one once in Atlanta, but they are gone.
I'd love to find an online retailer or LFS that does a full quarantine and has a good selection of fish at reasonable prices, but as far as I know, that doesn't exist. We had one once in Atlanta, but they are gone.
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A LFS or even one online that quarantines, is always going to cost more due to time and cost for medicine. Most retail stores are looking at quick turnover to maximize profit. QT is counterintuitive to this business model.
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I only know of two large scale operations and a few small home garage type operations. Reasonable prices are relative. Would you rather buy 1 $30 wrasse that ends up killing $250 worth of livestock you got lucky with. Or pay $90 for a wrasse that is healthy. Over time, it's a better investment. Certainly more expensive in the beginning.
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Btw, there aren't very many doing it because most hobbyists are hard-headed and unwilling to do the long-term math. I have considered starting a small quarantine outfit on the side because there really is a hole in the market...but it's a pain in the arse to do right and people aren't willing to pay me fairly for my effort...not to mention you need access to wholesalers to have competitive pricing...at small scale it kind of a chicken or the egg kind of thing. No way to start that small without a significant up-front investment to get vendor relationships going. Big up front risk...like most start-ups which is why most people don't own businesses.
By PITA, I mean I am fully capable of QTing my own fish to high standards and have the equipment in the garage to do so...but I would still rather pay a 50-100% markup to avoid having to do it.
By PITA, I mean I am fully capable of QTing my own fish to high standards and have the equipment in the garage to do so...but I would still rather pay a 50-100% markup to avoid having to do it.
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QT is also no guarantee the fish will survive. They will have losses they have to incorporate into pricing as well. That is a lot to take on and not get fair market value for their work.
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Yep things to factor in:
(1) Loss of incoming fish from the procurement process
(2) Loss of fish during the QT process (happens to the best of us)
(3) Cost of medication, particularly if you don't have wholesale access to supplies.
(4) Cost of salt...you go through A LOT of saltwater during QT.
(5) Cost of food.
(5) Equipment is relatively cheap, but you need A LOT of space to prevent cross-contamination.
(6) Shipping is very difficult to do economically at smaller scale...customers are going to have a hard time paying a lot for shipping when they already paid a premium for the fish. So you are somewhat geo-locked in your customer base.
(7) Cost of Labor. Lets say you turn 100 fish per month small scale and spent 3 hours per day upkeeping things. 30 days holding x 3 hours per day = 90 hours per month. At $20/hr that's $1800 in labor or $18/fish. 100 fish would be doing well for a small scale op and we are already talking about doubling the price of some entry-level fish just to cover labor. Plus few in the reef hobby with all the other pre-reqs are making $20/hr. Not to brag but I make several times that...why would I waste my time?
(8) Cost of Electricity
(9) Cost of Business (licenses, taxes, etc)
Oh AND your reputation is always on the line. QT isn't a 100% guarantee. Lets say I started a small business and made the bulk of my money in the ATL area. I am 99.9% successful in QTing fish. Within a year I will likely unknowingly sell a sick fish to a customer. Its a small community...a thread about it pops up on the forum. I am done.
I'd use a service if someone in the club offered one, but I'm not adding many fish these days so it would be hard to make a business off me. I wouldn't be opposed to a 30-50% up charge for a full QT. Somehow SEA Atlanta did it and were only marginally more expensive than other places. If there was a LFS who did the kind of job SEA Atlanta did, I'd purchase from them exclusively.
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I think it's because SEA was able to get wholesale prices, therefore not having to jack prices up too high like they would were they paying retail.
Yeah getting wholesale access is pretty much the only way to do it commercially, which is why it's hard for a lot of small outfits to start up. Aquaria is one of those weird industries where access to the wholesale market is treated as a coveted right. They almost all require business licenses, tax IDs and sizeable monthly minimums to start and maintain an account. For those living in urban counties, try getting a business license to operate a marine aquatics operation in your garage. Gwinnett won't even let you park a commercial vehicle (greater than F-450 or equivalent) in your own private driveway if it isn't zoned properly.
I remember reading on R2R a few months back about an online "wholesaler" who attempted to go direct to consumer. They were effectively blacklisted by the industry and forced to close pretty quickly.
I remember reading on R2R a few months back about an online "wholesaler" who attempted to go direct to consumer. They were effectively blacklisted by the industry and forced to close pretty quickly.
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Divers Den fish have time to acclimate and start eating in their dedicated facility. Regular LA, from what I understand, is just drop shipped straight from the wholesale trade in SoCal. I have had good luck from time to time with LA. I generally have ordered 2 of what I wanted, anticipating that one will not make it through QT. If they both survive, awesome, I keep them or advertise one on the forum. But I've also had LA shipments were none of the fish thrived.
For fish that you know can be difficult to start on captive foods, DD seems like a good investment.
For fish that you know can be difficult to start on captive foods, DD seems like a good investment.
I agree they have some cool finds such as their pre-paired critters.
But price wise, I don't think DD specifically is a good investment. They charge Pre-QT prices for WYSIWYG fish...which isn't a huge benefit for say a purple tang...where they all look the same anyway. For example, right now a 2" purple tang is listed "on sale" at LA DD for $250. You can buy a 1.5-2.5" purple tang from TSM aquatics for $200...with a 30 day full lab confirmed QT. It depends on what you are buying I guess.
