Looks like ich, spreads like ich, but...

[imay1280]

Lives in a HT tank with copper levels being constantly maintained at about 5ppm... What the heck is it?!? I have read about copper-resistant strains of ich, but even I can't get that friggin unlucky all the time. I tried to snap some pics, but they came out terribly and you really can't see what I'm talking about, so let me take you on an imaginary journey...

No, really... Here's where I am. I KNOW that the tank had ich, I treated copper safe, and things were looking right in the world. No signs of anything on any fish for about 10 days, and then, suddenly, a raised white freckle on a damsel. The next day, sluggish clown with raised grayish nodes on the head and back, and a lightly salted blue hippo. 60% water change, carbon out the copper safe, and dose paraguard instead. Fish look markedly clearer, clown is back to acting normally, and the hippo is clearing up... which is exactly what happened with the coppersafe on the first round of treatment.

So, any thoughts on what I am actually fighting here? I was thinking Brooklynella, but I would have expected fatalities, to which there have been none after the initial coppersafe treatment. Also, I haven't noticed any increase in sliminess for any of the fish, which I understand is hallmark. Velvet would have been neutered by the coppersafe as well, right?

:confused2:

 

[jp30338]

Coppersafe is garbage and ALL fish have ich. Use hypo and QT if you want to get rid if it. Maybe... Fallow tank for about 10weeks. Otherwise a healthy stress free fish will be able to live with ich without any problems.

 

[imay1280]

Thanks for the reply :yay: (and not to start an argument), but I've read a few research articles that say otherwise on ich presence. I know that there are plenty of people who go through a good QT process and do not deal with ich in their main tanks, stressed out fish or otherwise, including the notorious ich magnet tang families. I can't comment on coppersafe, other than saying that it definitely killed off a wave of ich the first time around. My poor hippo tang looked like it lost a fight with a confetti machine before I started the treatment.

My fish are already in a QT, which is where the second outbreak took place (Main tank will be fallow until at least the first week of March). I can say confidently that coppersafe had to have at least killed a good amount of the parasites that were present in the QT, because if it hadn't, and the lifecycle would have continued uninhibited, all of my fish would be dead by this point. When I say the ich was bad, I mean it.

To the point of stress, the fish are as calm as can be expected, but the QT absolutely isn't the Ritz Carlton. They are in close quarters, and there is a lots of nipping and chasing going on. It can't be helped, even with places to hide. If it only takes stress to trigger the ich that is always there, every fish should be covered, which isn't the case.

So, with all that being said, there is ample amount of stress in the tank to trigger an outbreak (as is evident by the fact that there was one), the coppersafe had to have been at least marginally effective in killing off parasites that entered the QT, there was a 10-day lull in between the last signs of any malady and yesterday when the new outbreak started, and all while having about 5ppm (API test kit, is it orange, orange or... orange?) of copper in the tank.

So, what looks like ich, lives through copper, doesn't kill like brooklynella, but moderately clears up with Paraguard (formalin alternative)? I think that is the question that need answered so that I can continue to try and get my fish healthy and pest free.

 

[jennm]

There are a few things it could be - without pictures, clear pictures, it's hard to say.

New water and a formalin-based medication should get it, whether it is indeed ich, or if it's something else like Amyloodinium or even Brooklynella - formalin will address all of those.

Jenn

 

[genesis]

I'm a firm supporter of Cupramine. Had an ich outbreak in the DT and transferred everyone over to the QT with copper levels around 5 ppm for 4 weeks and it was eradicated. I've used Paraguard in my QT previously as well but didn't have success with it.

 

[imay1280]

Thanks for the replies, it sounds like actual formalin is probably going to be the best course of action to take as the static 5ppm copper level obviously didn't do the job to begin with.

So, another question. Does anyone have a procedure for dosing a whole QT with formalin, as opposed to doing dips? I ask only because there will be multiple fish to dip, and it will be a lot less stressful overall if I can treat them without having to pay switcheroo multiple times. I looked around, but everything I have found only addresses dips.

Thanks again, I really appreciate it!

 

[jp30338]

Do you have a UV sterilizer, they are good at helping getting rid of the free flowing ich or parasites as well.

 

[imay1280]

Ok, here is the best picture I could get. A lot of the spots on the body of the clown have diminished, but they are still present, along with the circled problems I notice on its fins. The hippo has exactly two spots visible, one on each side of his body but none on his fins at all... Thoughts?

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[shrimpy brains]

IMO, people are constantly forming their own theories about ridding ich from fish/tanks. Being as it is only visible during a short stage of it's life, people no longer SEE the ich and assume it is gone. Your best option, IMO, is to learn, for yourself, the stages of ich and possible treatments based on science.

I don't know if it's ok to post this, but here is a very good article to help you better understand ich(assuming that is your issue) and find your method of dealing with it:
http://aquarium-depot.com/cryptocaryon-irritans-ich/">http://aquarium-depot.com/cryptocaryon-irritans-ich/</a>

Best of luck to you!

 

[jp30338]

Shrimpy Brains;1012636 wrote: IMO, people are constantly forming their own theories about ridding ich from fish/tanks. Being as it is only visible during a short stage of it's life, people no longer SEE the ich and assume it is gone. Your best option, IMO, is to learn, for yourself, the stages of ich and possible treatments based on science.

I don't know if it's ok to post this, but here is a very good article to help you better understand ich(assuming that is your issue) and find your method of dealing with it:
http://aquarium-depot.com/cryptocaryon-irritans-ich/">http://aquarium-depot.com/cryptocaryon-irritans-ich/</a>

Best of luck to you![/QUOTE]
Not sure where you get people forming their own opinions but copper, hypo, qt, and uv are what people do use to get rid of ich, and their have been tons of research done with those methods and are what works based on science...

 

[imay1280]

yeah, what I'm saying is that I am not so sure that it actually is ich. The spots on the fish are raised, but don't actually look like the ich spots that I am used to seeing. I don't know how to treat it when I don't know what it is, and cycling through medications until something seems to work is just tormenting my fish...

 

[stacy22]

jp30338;1012453 wrote: Coppersafe is garbage and ALL fish have ich. Use hypo and QT if you want to get rid if it. Maybe... Fallow tank for about 10weeks. Otherwise a healthy stress free fish will be able to live with ich without any problems.

This is not true at all. Properly treated fish can be ich-free. There are many hypo-resistant strains of Cryptocaryon. The best methods for eliminating ich infections are tank transfer and Cupramine. A fallow period of 72 days is needed to eliminate ich from a DT.

 

[imay1280]

Ok, this is really irritating me, and I can only imagine what it is doing to the fish... Can anyone help me positively ID this? Nothing seems to help it...

Fish are eating fine, tang is flashing, and these look like protrusions up close...

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[jennm]

Holy giant pictures, Batman!

Hard to say for sure. Have you tried a formalin based medicine yet? I'd go that route - it covers a lot more bases than just copper (and is usually tolerated better.)

Jenn

 

[imay1280]

Ha! Oddly enough, when I open them at Imgur they don't pull up nearly that big, and actually look a little clearer.

I have done three paraguard dips with no improvement, so I ordered some Formalin which should be here tomorrow and I will do a true Formalin dip on Saturday to see if it helps. Seachem said that Paraguard should be strong enough to work effectively in dip form as a "formalin substitute" on their forums, but it doesn't seem to be living up to the claims (assuming that whatever the fish have is something that formalin would be able to combat in the first place).

 

[jennm]

While I love Seachem, I've never had great success with Paraguard. Time to bring in the big gun.

Be careful with it, it is a carcinogen.

 

[imay1280]

I absolutely will. I read up on it a lot, up to the point of not wanting to use it at all. However, if it's the only solution that will work... :sad: