More Low pH Questions

cameron

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Ok, I have hit the problem and it seems large and scary. My dkh is around 9-10, my calcium is around 400 and my mag is 1200ish. All is well in the world except my scary low pH. I am running a calcium reactor and I sure this is the main problem so now I am at that ugly decision as to how to get pH up.

First question: Why can't I dose pure carbonate to the tank? I know this will jack pH without effecting alk too much. I am sure there is a real good reason and hopefully someone can dial me in on it.

Second question: I am considering kalkwasser, but I want it is maintenance free as possible. I don't mind running my top off through a kalkwasser reactor, but my top off runs under RO pressure. Is there any reactor out there safe enough to run under this pressure? Any out there that doesn't cost an arm and a leg?

Third question: I already tried venting and opening a window approach and it helped a tiny bit. Other than that and what is listed above is there any new cool way to handle CO2 pH suppression?
 
How low is it.....your mag is a little low i would try raising that first then yourph alsoadd a air stone to sump see if that helps
 
1200 mag is OK. I will dose more mag later today as I have already dosed once in the last 12 hours and don't want to go nuts, but I dont' think that is it.

pH is hitting the 7.8 mark right now. It will likely dip below that slightly tonight. It will be above 8 tomorrow during the day. I have shut the reactor completely off and I am currently venting (i.e. sucking air from outside and blasting into the tank with a Super Luft pump).

Don't want to get too crazy with the changes right now just trying to find the long term solution. Wondering about my questions more than my problem.
 
If you are talking about a ph buffer, i believe these have a tendency to raise borate alkalinity over the more important carbonate alkalinity and could affect tests of carbonate alkalinity down the line. I may be wrong but i think the impact on ph would only be temporary anyways. dripping kalwasser would work well, i dont know much about the reactors themselves, but you could also consider raising the ph of your effluent or simply running your calcium reactor only during the day.

Also you could try taking a sample of water and aerating it heavily for 10-15 minutes, measuring ph before and after. If there is an increase you may be able to boost it some by creating extra surface agitation to aid in gas exchange. I found that my ph rose some after dedicating a couple pumps to increasing surface disturbance. Mine seems kinda excessive but i believe it helps.
 
I don't know much about your setup, but I used a bucket that I just mixed Kalk in from time to time with a dosing pump for a couple of years. I did keep the lid on, and ran a tube in... I just mixed it to about saturation every few weeks. I did switch to a Kalk reactor finally, but that was more to save room when my tank got larger.

I use an MRC reactor, the new version, now. I can't speak to any others, but you don't want to set this one up with a "push" system (say, from the RO unit), as it can cause leaks. I refill it every 2-3 weeks, and flip it over to break up the block of CA about every week or so.

-Mike
 
Are you running a refuge if so is your outlet water running into it, you would be suprised how much co2 macro will suckup. Also is your reactor a two chamber or one second degassing chambers help.
 
Reactor goes right into a HUGE ball of chaeto. I am considering a second chamber, but from my reading it doesn't correct the problem only lesson it.

I have been running the reactor only when all my lights are on. I may have been running it too fast, but I have normally low pH in my tank without a reactor so I am going to have this problem regardless.

RO pressure is usually 30-40, but at least two units I have read say don't run them under pressure as their seals might not hold which seems a bit scary to me. I figured someone out there might have a medium sized reactor that can handle pressure.

As for my RO sticking ON, REALLY unlikely. I use a double switch autotopoff.com unit connected to an electronic solinoid that runs into a float valve and that electonic solinoid is also connected to an auto cut off float swith. Then I run a solinoid on the front of the RO unit which is timed to about three hours per day so I can only add about 9 gallons of top off per day. So basically a manual float valve needs to stick on and three cut off float switches need to stick on. I still have to put in a switch for my AC3 to alert me if something sticks off though.

So I guess I am back to kalk and some reactor that can handle RO pressure. Any other ideas floating out there maybe some cool chemical or setup that removes CO2 from the tank and increase pH?
 
I like the Aqua Medic KS1000 for a kalk reactor. I have been using one for about a month now and it is awesome. I have it running off of my ATO and RK2(pH control). I am using a SP3000 dosing pump to feed the reactor from my RO bucket.

The input on this reactor is JG fittings like on most RO units so you could likely set this up with a RO filter inline. The water is fed through the bottom and rises up through the kalk so depending on the pressure this may agitate the powder more than necessary? My feed pump agitates it a little but not enough to force powder through the output. The stirrer runs constantly and maintains saturation as new water is fed through.

My pH has been running between 8.3 and 8.4 consistently since I hooked it up. Keep in mind that this is on a 28g Nano Cube and I am not using a CA reactor. :)

I have also been using the Kalk +2 product from Brightwell Aquatics in the reactor. This is Calcium Hydroxide with Magnesium and Strontium mixed in at the correct ratios. Huge improvement for my tank since I set it up.
 
I was wondering about the AquaMedic unit since it is magnetic and relatively cheap. I know you are supposed to use a timer, but I can use my AC3 for that.

My RO/DI produces 75gpd so I would think the pressure coming out would be just over 3gph which is about aqualifter speed thinking about it. I just read this from the MRC instructions:

***It is NOT recommended to connect a RO/DI unit directly to the Nilsen Reactor. It is best to use a dosing pump and/or another method to feed the reactor. The pressure from an RO/DI unit can be too great and could compromise the reactor.***

Not sure how RO/DI could ever cause this problem thinking about. The MRC ones looks nice as they come with the timers which is a nice addition and saves me one more port plus they are a local sponser. I may pop for one of those and just be done with it.
 
I thought kalk already had a good amount of magnesium hydroxide in it which I believe what kalk+2 is. I looked at the stuff a long time ago, but figured it was just repeating what is already in most kalk. I could be very wrong though.

I am using dolomite in the Ca reactor to help with the mag. At least that is the plan. If Kalk+2 can supplement moreso that the normal kalk certainly would be a nice additive.
 
The features I looked for in a kalk reactor were
<ul>
<li>stir method (not pump method)</li>
<li>top down motor</li>
<li>bottom up water feed</li>
<li>good price</li>
</ul>

The Deltec, MRC and the Aqua Medic were about the only ones I found like this. The Aqua Medic won for me at $219. My only complaints about the KS1000 are poor instructions and they installed the check valve on the in-feed backwards. :doh:

No matter what unit you decide on you should some definite benefits in terms of boosting your pH. With the additional calcium you may also be able to slow your CA reactor effluent and find a good balance between pH, CA, Alk additions.

My calcium has settled at around 450ppm and my Alk at 8dKH. The magnesium is still around 1280ppm but has stopped dropping. I think other than some occasional buffer and magnesium booster doses the Kalk reactor will keep with the demands of my tank no problem. Maybe I should add a calcium reactor? LOL
 
Cameron;121005 wrote:

Not sure how RO/DI could ever cause this problem thinking about.


Neither did I, but it did. The usual problem... 1psi on a 6 inch plate is over 27lbs of pressure. Also, if they are using, say, grommets to seal things like shafts, it takes very little pressure to blow them. The water pressure of a RO/DI system, even with the "dual cutoff", can still hit a high, if only momentarily. Meanwhile, the Kalk tends to crust into the end of the outflow tube a little (where it enters the sump), causing it to plug over time if you miss it.

-Mike
 
mwitten;121060 wrote: Neither did I, but it did. The usual problem... 1psi on a 6 inch plate is over 27lbs of pressure. Also, if they are using, say, grommets to seal things like shafts, it takes very little pressure to blow them. The water pressure of a RO/DI system, even with the "dual cutoff", can still hit a high, if only momentarily. Meanwhile, the Kalk tends to crust into the end of the outflow tube a little (where it enters the sump), causing it to plug over time if you miss it.

-Mike
More pressure should relate to more water being forced down the line. You would think a maxijet which kicks out over 100-200gph would be far more pressure on the system than 3.2gph. I don't know what the max flow through RO/DI tubing is, but I have to imagine it is well more than 3.2gph hour.
 
I figured out why you shouldn't run an RO on one of these units. If the top off level cuts off before the RO output, pressure will build in the line until it equals input pressure. The only way to stop this that I can think of is to cut the RO input when the top off is reached. I can do this in my setup fortunately.
 
hey Cameron check out this article by Randy:

pH

Aquarists spend a considerable amount of time and effort worrying about, and attempting to solve, apparent problems with the pH of their aquaria. Some of this effort is certainly justified, as true pH problems can lead to poor animal health. In many cases, however, the only problem is with the pH measurement or its interpretation.

Several factors make monitoring a marine aquarium's pH level important. One is that aquatic organisms thrive only in a particular pH range, which varies from organism to organism. It is therefore difficult to justify a claim that a particular pH range is "optimal" in an aquarium housing many species. Even natural seawater's pH (8.0 to 8.3) may be suboptimal for some of its creatures, but it was recognized more than eighty years ago that pH levels different from natural seawater (down to 7.3, for example) are stressful to fish.6 Additional information now exists about optimal pH ranges for many organisms, but the data are woefully inadequate to allow aquarists to optimize pH for most organisms which interest them.7-11

Additionally, pH's effect on organisms can be direct, or indirect. The toxicity of metals such as copper and nickel to some aquarium organisms, such as mysids and amphipods,12 is known to vary with pH Consequently the acceptable pH range of one aquarium may differ from another aquarium's, even if they contain the same organisms, but have different concentrations of metals.

Changes in pH nevertheless do substantially impact some fundamental processes taking place in many marine organisms. One of these fundamental processes is calcification, or deposition of calcium carbonate skeletons, which is known to depend on pH, dropping as pH falls.13,14 Using this type of information, along with the integrated experience of many hobbyists, we can develop some guidelines about what is an acceptable pH range for reef aquaria, and what values push the limits.

The acceptable pH range for reef aquaria is an opinion rather than a clearly delineated fact, and will certainly vary with the opinion's provider. This range may also be quite different from the "optimal" range. Justifying what is optimal, however, is much more problematic than is justifying that which is simply acceptable, so we will focus on the latter. As a goal, I'd suggest that the pH of natural seawater, about 8.2, is appropriate, but coral reef aquaria can clearly succeed in a wider range of pH values. In my opinion, the pH range from 7.8 to 8.5 is an acceptable range for reef aquaria, with several caveats. These are:

That the alkalinity is at least 2.5 meq/L, and preferably higher at the lower end of this pH range. I base this statement partly on the fact that many reef aquaria operate quite effectively in the pH 7.8 to 8.0 range, and that most of the best examples of these types of aquaria incorporate calcium carbonate/carbon dioxide reactors which, while tending to lower the pH, keep the carbonate alkalinity fairly high (at or above 3 meq/L.). In this case, any problems associated with calcification at these lower pH values may be offset by the higher alkalinity.

That the calcium level is at least 400 ppm. Calcification becomes more difficult as the pH and calcium levels fall. It is not desirable to push all of the extremes of pH, alkalinity, and calcium at the same time, so if the pH is low and cannot be easily changed (as may be the case in an aquarium with a CaCO3/CO2 reactor), at least make sure that the calcium level is normal to high (~400-450 ppm).

Likewise, one of the problems at higher pH (anywhere above 8.2, but progressively more problematic with each incremental rise) is the abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate, resulting in a drop in calcium and alkalinity, and the clogging of heaters and pump impellers. If you push the pH to 8.4 or higher (as often happens when using limewater), make sure that both the calcium and alkalinity levels are suitably maintained (that is, neither too low, inhibiting biological calcification, nor too high, causing excessive abiotic precipitation on equipment).

Transient upward spikes are less deleterious than transient downward spikes in pH.


full page:
a>
 
Read it, applied it (with the exception of kalk after the reactor) and still have a problem. Thanks for posting it though. For me, dipping below 7.8 ph is unacceptable and is my mark. My plan is to run kalk at this point but I would have rather found a chemicaless fix or at least a less messy chemical to work with.

I read an article that basically said neutral pH during non-growth times is OK which would mean a 7ph is fine as long as it isn't in the middle of the day. However, I still think the keeping the pH as stable as possible around 8.1 or 8.2 is for the best. I would be happy at around 8 though.
 
can't you dose the part (I can't remember which part it is, but you'll know) in Randy's 2 part that raises Ph? I'm not talking about the ALK part B, but of the ingredients (example, baking soda)?

Hey...just a thought, Randies back over there for a while, he's a freakin' chemist, post a question directly to him (not Bertoni). He'll have the answer or no one will.
 
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