Moving sump/Fuge, etc to the basement....

[oz]

For those of you that have (or have had) your display on one level and your sump and everything below, I'd love some words of wisdom as I am contemplating making that move.

Right now my sump is under the display and my chiller, skimmer, uv, fuge, skimmer, cal reactor, kalkwasser reactor, top off container, etc is in a little room behind the display (use to be the bar ).

I want to move everything (except the display) to the basement so I just starting the planning for it now to incorporate much larger sump, fuge, etc.

I currently have 1" bulkead overflows and 3/4" returns to the tank. the equipment will be one floor below and about ~15 feet away (not directly under). The overflows will be fine but do I stick with the 3/4 return line or do I need to go 1" from a larger pump then reduce it under the display to 3/4"?

We're talkin' ~25ft from where the return pump will be to where the returns are on the display. I may tie in my 50G kitchen system off of it as well.

Thanks in advance for thoughts.

 

[fish scales2]

Start by building a stand and bench for the sump and fuge to sit up on. That will eliminate a little bit of head height itself.

 

[hfleming]

I just finished doing the same thing. I set up a 55 gallon sump/fuge/skimmer chamber in the basement. I am in Buford, if you want to come over and take a look let me know.

Here is what I learned:

Pay attention to your pump selection. Look at the performance curves for your pump and see what flow you will get at elevation. I am basicly pumping straight up 15'. I am using a Reeflo Wahoo that is rated around 1500 gph at 15'. Reeflo has these pumps from the factory for $190 for a limited time.

I plumbed 1-1/2 for supply and return. I reduced down to 1" near the tank on the pressure line. I have a ball valve on this line to control flow into the display tank.

The drain line down into the sump will go into "siphon" mode, it will pull huge amounts of water. The siphon became so fast that it outran the supply and began pulling air which was very loud. I believe a 1" drain line would work just fine, I reduced mine down to 1" in the sump to try and slow the flow down so it would not pull air but it still flowed huge amounts due to the siphon action. I solved it by dialing back the supply flow which prevented the drain from going into siphon mode. Basicly I think the water just tumbles or flows down and does not siphon. I estimate I am flowing around 600-700 gph, any more and I get the endless toilet flush sound, even with mufflers and submerged overflows.

The other issue was with higher flow the velocity of the water coming into the sump was very fast and with lots of bubbles. Plan your sump with some good bubble trap baffles.

I gained a huge amount of cooling and was able to do away with cooling fans over the sump. I have 2x 250 MH lighting. I don't know if it is all the plumbing, increased volume, or cool basement that had the most effect.

http://bellsouthpwp.net/f/l/flem3326/IMG_2807.JPG" alt="" />

Don't judge too quick, I just got all this running about a week ago. I still have a lot of clean up issues to take care of, but everything is functional. This picture shows the supply and return lines going up to the display tank. The 20 gallon on top is fed from the main pump also. It is used to hold some extra rock. It overflows back into the sump.

[IMG]http://bellsouthpwp.net/f/l/flem3326/IMG_2806.JPG" alt="" />

Future plans are to take the 2 drums and place them in the corner, one for RO storage and the other for salt mixing. With both plumbed in for easy water changes.

I am also going to wire in some dedicated outlets and breakers for the equipment. The wahoo pump can run 120 or 220 so I will convert it and run on 220 to try and get the efficiency better. Right now on 110 the pump is pulling about 1.3 amps but the flow is valved way back. They are right when they say valving back the flow reduces power consumption. When I had it on the higher flow power consumption was up above 3 amps.

One more thing...no the picture above the sump is not for sale.

Heath

 

[fish scales2]

Put a gate valve on the drian line.

 

[hfleming]

I put a ball valve on the drain line, a gate valve would be easier to adjust. With the ball valve I had a lot of trouble getting it "just right".

I either had it open too much resulting in the massive siphon or I had it closed too much and it started backing up the tank.

A gate valve might be worth another try. They are much easier to "tweak".

Thanks for the tip.

 

[jonathan]

The drain will be your biggest challenge. I found luck with a 2 inch drain and a 1.5 durso.The biggest issue is the air getting trapped in the drain when using a smaller pipe. Keep a good slope on the horizonal runs and try to eliminate any straight drops. It is pushing 700-800 gph with a iwaki 70 and is silent. I decided not to throttle the drain with a gate.

 

[purplegorilla]

If you can, use as much flexible pipes as you can. It will reduce turbulences.

 

[mojo]

I'd highly recommend going around and seeing several people's basement setups. There's a number of quirks and ways to do it, and everyone has their own special techniques for stuff.

One thing to keep in mind when calculating head pressure is that you're calculating from the top of the water in the sump to the first open pipe at the top of the return. So even if you've got 25' from basement floor to the top of the tank, putting the sump on a stand as Fish Scales mentioned will reduce the head by 1-3 feet, and then the height of the water another 1-3 feet.

I probably don't have a "typical" setup anymore, but you're welcome to come see my setup at some point.

 

[oz]

hfleming;244817 wrote: I just finished doing the same thing. I set up a 55 gallon sump/fuge/skimmer chamber in the basement. I am in Buford, if you want to come over and take a look let me know.

Here is what I learned:

Pay attention to your pump selection. Look at the performance curves for your pump and see what flow you will get at elevation. I am basicly pumping straight up 15'. I am using a Reeflo Wahoo that is rated around 1500 gph at 15'. Reeflo has these pumps from the factory for $190 for a limited time.

I plumbed 1-1/2 for supply and return. I reduced down to 1" near the tank on the pressure line. I have a ball valve on this line to control flow into the display tank.

The drain line down into the sump will go into "siphon" mode, it will pull huge amounts of water. The siphon became so fast that it outran the supply and began pulling air which was very loud. I believe a 1" drain line would work just fine, I reduced mine down to 1" in the sump to try and slow the flow down so it would not pull air but it still flowed huge amounts due to the siphon action. I solved it by dialing back the supply flow which prevented the drain from going into siphon mode. Basicly I think the water just tumbles or flows down and does not siphon. I estimate I am flowing around 600-700 gph, any more and I get the endless toilet flush sound, even with mufflers and submerged overflows.

The other issue was with higher flow the velocity of the water coming into the sump was very fast and with lots of bubbles. Plan your sump with some good bubble trap baffles.

I gained a huge amount of cooling and was able to do away with cooling fans over the sump. I have 2x 250 MH lighting. I don't know if it is all the plumbing, increased volume, or cool basement that had the most effect.

http://bellsouthpwp.net/f/l/flem3326/IMG_2807.JPG" alt="" />

Don't judge too quick, I just got all this running about a week ago. I still have a lot of clean up issues to take care of, but everything is functional. This picture shows the supply and return lines going up to the display tank. The 20 gallon on top is fed from the main pump also. It is used to hold some extra rock. It overflows back into the sump.

[IMG]http://bellsouthpwp.net/f/l/flem3326/IMG_2806.JPG" alt="" />

Future plans are to take the 2 drums and place them in the corner, one for RO storage and the other for salt mixing. With both plumbed in for easy water changes.

I am also going to wire in some dedicated outlets and breakers for the equipment. The wahoo pump can run 120 or 220 so I will convert it and run on 220 to try and get the efficiency better. Right now on 110 the pump is pulling about 1.3 amps but the flow is valved way back. They are right when they say valving back the flow reduces power consumption. When I had it on the higher flow power consumption was up above 3 amps.

One more thing...no the picture above the sump is not for sale.

Heath[/QUOTE]

Very nice, thanks - this helps.

 

[jonathan]

I actually ripped my flex drain out due to it trapping air. I found that the horiz.runs are easier to deal with using standard pvc in order to keep the air from getting trapped like a p trap. The slightest dip in the flex was building air pockets that couldn't escape. The air will always try to escape upward and will cause the dreaded flushing sounds when it builds up and gets forced downward by the flow.

 

[oz]

Jonathan;244920 wrote: The drain will be your biggest challenge. I found luck with a 2 inch drain and a 1.5 durso.The biggest issue is the air getting trapped in the drain when using a smaller pipe. Keep a good slope on the horizonal runs and try to eliminate any straight drops. It is pushing 700-800 gph with a iwaki 70 and is silent. I decided not to throttle the drain with a gate.

Yeah - I'll have 15' or so of horizontal gentle slope so it should help a ton.

mojo;244941 wrote: I'd highly recommend going around and seeing several people's basement setups. There's a number of quirks and ways to do it, and everyone has their own special techniques for stuff.

One thing to keep in mind when calculating head pressure is that you're calculating from the top of the water in the sump to the first open pipe at the top of the return. So even if you've got 25' from basement floor to the top of the tank, putting the sump on a stand as Fish Scales mentioned will reduce the head by 1-3 feet, and then the height of the water another 1-3 feet.

I probably don't have a "typical" setup anymore, but you're welcome to come see my setup at some point.

Agreed - now I need to build something not too ugly.

 

[mojo]

Jonathan;244952 wrote: I actually ripped my flex drain out due to it trapping air. I found that the horiz.runs are easier to deal with using standard pvc in order to keep the air from getting trapped like a p trap. The slightest dip in the flex was building air pockets that couldn't escape. The air will always try to escape upward and will cause the dreaded flushing sounds when it builds up and gets forced downward by the flow.

And I use flex pipe whenever possible. I can make a run 50' long with flex pipe, and never have to worry about any kind of leaks. I can also make bends that I couldn't make otherwise. I don't think I've ever had the flushing problem, but most of my lines were pretty near vertical...

 

[jonathan]

I believe every situation is different and agree that viewing current basement setups would be very beneficial. There are several ways to skin this cat and I bet that everyone has run across different problems and solutions for their own unique setup. Water flow is just too unpredictable especially when running close to the free flow rates of certain size pipes over extended distances. It took me forever to get the flow rate to noise ratio to my liking.

 

[oz]

What about the return size? IF I need a pump that will give me 500gph (with 25' of head) can I still use 3/4" or do I need to bump it up?

 

[purplegorilla]

Here was my old one. I have since changed from that pic and of course has taken it down since I sold my 180gallon.

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[oz]

Here was my old one. I have since changed from that pic and of course has taken it down since I sold my 180gallon.

Trinh, so you brought your 1" overflows together (1) 2" main drain from your display down to the sump?

I see (2) 3/4" returns heading back up - were these going to the same tank? why did you separate them like that?

 

[oz]

YEah I was wondering why you would separate them in the basement instead of under the tank - 1 less pipe to run.

 

[purplegorilla]

Initially I had 2 pumps for return in case one goes out, that way at least one is still working. After while I decided to put one large pump. Its trial and error. However one thing about having it in the basement, you have all the room to play around.

That was my old 180 gallon I sold. Eventually I would like to move my 240 to the existing location but kind of lazy.

 

[oz]

That makes sense. Let me know if you need help when you get unlazy.