Nutrient Questions

[danh]

I learned some new information from SnowManSnow's thread about adding sodium nitrate to boost his nitrates. Then I read some more about water changes and nutrients....

Last night before I did a weekly water change I tested like I normally do. Nitrates have been steady at 4 and phosphate at .08 for the last month or so. In the last couple of weeks I doubled my LED wattage to my ATS by adding lighting to the other side... And last night nitrates were <2 and Phosphate .02. Alkalinity steady around 9 and CA fairly steady at 400.

Coming from FW, I believe firmly in water changes. In my last FW 210g tank I was doing 100-120g of water change twice a week to keep nitrates under 20 with a BIG bio load and those fish were incredibly healthy. In my old 480g tank I had a constant water changer doing 50-75g per day. It's not easy for me to think about doing less than my weekly 10% on this reef tank.... I know I need to add back trace elements and remove waste from the water that we don't test for but if my main elements are good and nutrients are low and even dropping, should I still keep up 10% a week? I think we'll have varying responses, so I'll take them for what they are - personal opinions based on knowledge and experience.

 

[snowmansnow]

Hey Daniel,
1st let me be clear that I'm just experimenting with adding NaNo3. I guess I'm from the old school of thinking, but I'm still not won over to having NO3 in the tank by choice haha.
That being said I am experiencing good results.
Personally I run a big efficient skimmer, at least I do now and did on my last tank, keep up with water changes and remove ANYTHING that looks like it could contribute to a rise of NO3 in the tank, and I've concluded through testing that if I carry 2ppt NO3 in my total 100g that my tank will consume it to the point of 0 (at least undetectable by my test kits) in about a week if I don't dose.

So, why do I ADD NO3 and TAKE NO3 instead of just not doing water changes or cutting back on skimming?

Well, I MAY be wrong, but it makes sense to me that I do want to keep other consumable levels up, but strong water changes and skimming also removes more than just NO3 from the system. As I've added NaNO3 my PO4 levels have remained ~0 (again according to Red Sea Pro kits). Now, I'm SURE there is level of PO4 IN the tank, but I would just need to test for a lower concentration than my kit would afford (I guess I could use the alternate test on the back of the card). If I were to not do water changes or cut back on skimming those levels WOULD rise. I also feel that it would allow for other "pathogens" to build up in the system.

So, by simply adding NO3 to the system I feel I'm able to manage exactly what the levels are, as well as dictate what other elements are taken out.

Now, something you may consider is doing a slightly larger water change once a month instead of smaller ones once a week and see how your tank responds for a quarter.

Hope this helps you understand at least MY take on things. Keep in mind that systems are VERY different and what may work for one won't work for another... why? WHO KNOWS. If it did then we would all be able to perfectly replicate a tank of the month haha.

 

[snowmansnow]

Well, I read the above and confused myself so ... here is the simplified version:

Adding NaNO3 source : Adds NO3 and soduim (and that's all depending on purity level)

Skimming : Removes NO3 and a LOT of other things : also aids in CO2 dispersion (helping maintain PH) : Aids in oxygenation

Water Changes : Removes wastes and replenishes elements (depending on salt mix)
______

By not doing skimming and water changes NO3 raises AND other wastes compound. NO3 rises, but so do a lot of other undesirables.

SO, by adding an NO3 source one may be able to maintain a certain level of NO3 without a spike in other things.

 

[danh]

I think I understand fully the idea of the chemistry behind what you were doing and your thoughts about it. This thread isn't JUST based on adding the NaNO3. I'm not considering that for myself at this point. This is more for water changes. There was a r2r article on not doing water changes and triton stuff I read the other day. I'm not going to be sending my water off for testing. There was also an article from a guy with a mature system that did very small and infrequent water changes.

I want to manage my water changes.... effectively.... For FW my water changes were specifically for nitrates because of the bio load. Of course changing water had its other benefits... and could have its challenges too.
So I want to do water changes to effectively manage (remove) nitrate and phosphate, remove other pathogens as we both stated, and to replenish trace elements as we both stated.

I, personally, would consider something with my skimmer first, not necessarily removing it. But I would also not go straight to the idea of keeping the skimmer only for gas exchange. I would think about other ways to accomplish that. I might end with keeping the skimmer anyway after considering it enough.

 

[snowmansnow]

i dig what your saying. The skimmer, assuming its big enough, WILL make a difference in your PH. Since I've installed another BubbleKing on my system my PH went from stable at 7.9 to stable at 8.2. Not a HUGE different i know, but it DOES make a difference considering I haven't really done anything else to promote the CO2 escape.
How big is the system you're doing? My last 120 was full of sps (at least by my personal standards) and I did a once a month water change of 10 g. That was before doing any NO3 dosing ever crossed my mind.

 

[danh]

93g display and maybe 15-20g in the sump. I've got an Eshopps S200 skimmer seems to have taken an unusually long time to break in. It's always pulled, but had to be almost completely closed (at the highest water level possible) to pull anything. It's now pulling more with a lower water level. I only have small frags of sps, like 6x up to 3-4" frags. Maybe 20 heads of candy cane, 100 zoa polyps, a decent sized torch, some acans. I'm using 3 tsp of kalk in 5g of ATO to keep my CA and Alk stable pretty much where I want it. My Ph goes from 7.98-8.16 night vs day even with my reverse lit ATS. Which is fine IMO.

I will likely, at some point, consider removing my skimmer. When I consider it based on my ATS and nitrate and phosphate levels I will also consider how to compensate my gas exchange. I won't just pull my skimmer. Maybe adjust it to a pull very little or consider other options for gas exchange that don't remove nutrients. I'm not considering that at this time or with this post.

I've got 13 fish in the tank. IMO it's a heavily stocked reef tank.. but not heavily stocked when compared to my FW. Different world.
blue tang 4-5"
yellow tang 4-5"
2x spotcinctus clowns 3" and 1"
4x blue chromis 2-3" pretty big
2x bangii cardinal 2"
lawnmower blenny 3"
Diamond goby 4"
Mandarin dragonette 3"

I just don't want to be doing wasteful or even harmful water changes. I do see a small blip in ph when when I change. Not any more than the daily fluctuation. So maybe there isn't a whole lot of harm in weekly 10% water changes, but by my FW standards of religious water changes, I don't need to do as much as 10% a week. And that is considering a LOT more than just nitrates.

 

[danh]

Oh... yes, stock..
RBTA football size when open
2x trochus snails
turbo snail
sally light foot crab
emerald crab
6 hermits


I think that's it....

 

[snowmansnow]

well. you can definitely stand higher NO3, so I don't think going up will be an issue. Most of your livestock will be just fine. The LPS and such will love it haha.

As far as the skimmer goes, if you want to decrease the amount of time it runs gradually, you could use a controller (not sure if you are running one) or even just a basic timer to cut it off a few hours a day or something.

You aren't going to do harmful water changes as long as you aren't changing out a HUGE % of it at once.
I'll be quiet now ha

 

[danh]

Naw that's cool. Thanks for the input. I definitely think I'm going to wait out the next water change. At least another week as both no3 and po4 have decreased since my last water change.


I have an apex so I may try the intervals at some point later, not now.

 

[danh]

Two days later... Nitrate and phosphate are DOWN... wow... Magnesium is down from my last test several weeks ago. Might be an error in the test process, so I'm not too concerned with it right now... but wow... no3 and po4 down again. This must be because my ATS is maturing and I added the lights to the other side of the substrate. I'll keep a closer eye on the mag to make sure it stays high enough.

What about flow across the ATS? You can see my substrate is connected to the spray bar. It just pushed in to the bulkhead supplying the water. I'd say it's pretty low flow now. I can't imagine that the push in fitting would hold strong enough to sustain too much pressure on the spray bar to shoot the water across the substrate so quickly that it didn't have enough time to export nutrients in the algae. Thoughts???

While I have read to clean it weekly even as it's establishing, I have left it for a few weeks. That's a lot of algae.

</a>


So I have an additional question.. One of waffled on for a while. Filter socks... If you aren't overfeeding, or using feed cycles effectively (turn off your pumps when you feed giving the fish a chance to eat it all up before it gets swept into an overflow), then you aren't getting chunks of shrimp or other food falling in to your overflow. Why would you want to catch the smaller stuff in the socks that keep the waste in the water until you manually remove them, days, weeks, whatever your schedule is later, when your skimmer take them out of the water column quicker with less intervention? In my FW tanks I recognize the enormous role of mechanical filtration when it comes to water quality. With skimmer in SW I see an immensely less need for mechanical for anything other than aesthetic reasons.


And the main topic of this thread, which my no3 and p04 tests tonight have made more of a question to me... Why do we do do water changes when our no3 and p04 are low, and even so low that we try to find ways to boost them rather than add back the trace elements we understand we need.

I'll reiterate that I understand the concept that there are other undesirables in our water that build up that we want to remove. Hormones is an example that comes to mind.... But I have heard enough stories of little to no water changes producing thriving reefs to ignore. And I haven't found empirical evidence of those other undesirables. I'll also repeat that I have always consistently done huge water changes on my FW tanks - but specifically for nitrates.

 

[danh]

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[danh]

I feel like I need to add another comment... and I might need to incorporate this in to a signature....


I can be sarcastic. I can be rude. I'm not always nice. Sorry

I'm also detail oriented. I ask a lot of questions. I don't just want to know the details... I NEED TO KNOW THE DETAILS.


I think that's why I like this hobby and why I've moved form FW to SW. It's a new ocean of details for me to learn.
That's a pun

 

[snowmansnow]

I'll speak to the socks. I just like a clean sump. That's my main reason


So long, and thanks for all the fish.

 

[thanhreef]

Speaking of water change, every system is different. I used to do 20-25% water change every two weeks but not anymore...

Here is mine:

Early this year, my main hardwood floor was replaced so I moved my SPS dominated tank into garage and stayed there for at least 6 weeks without water change. It was like a neglected tank. Amazingly, all corals and fishes were still very healthy although it was a bit of algae on the glass. Since then I have done 20gal water change every 4 or 5 weeks (130gal total volume) and tank is very healthy especially corals and fishes. I have 10 fishes and a lot of COC (turbo snails, Conch and a lot of blue hermit)

I think my filter system has done an awesome job. When I upgraded the sump late last year (

 

[danh]

SnowManSnow;1092778 wrote: I'll speak to the socks. I just like a clean sump. That's my main reason


So long, and thanks for all the fish.

I've got one small skimmz mesh sock. I've got a little bit of detritus in my skimmer chamber already... but I almost feel like I don't mind it getting in my rubble baskets to feed pods and stuff. I've just been considering my options... Move in one of my thick socks, keep using the skimmz or remove....

 

[danh]

thanhreef;1092780 wrote: I think my filter system has done an awesome job. When I upgraded the sump late last year (http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=102232">http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=102232</a>), I removed completely cheato, GFO high capacity and later added 2 blocks (8x8x4") of MarinePure which I really love this stuff.[/QUOTE]

What makes you love the MarinePure? I've got an 8x8x4 block I am about to add to my sump so I can move it to a new tank in a few months. What are the results you feel are coming from it?

 

[danh]

Phosphate is up to .04 but no change in nitrates... after two banghi cardinals died in the last week. They were only a few weeks old. I don't really know what the cause of death was but my cuc got them pretty quickly.

 

[lsu_fishfan]

On my 60 gallon lps and softy tank, I go anywhere from 1-2 months without water changes and my corals are all happy and growing. After 2+ months the trace elements are depleted and corals become less happy and don't extend much. My nitrates stay around .5 ppm and po4 .08. I also dose calcium and alkalinity daily to maintain levels around 450ppm and 7.5 dkh

 

[Adam]

Hey Dan,

How long have you had water in this tank? Today is 9 weeks for me and I have quite a bit less livestock. I'm taking it pretty slow.

 

[danh]

I have kalk in my ATO. I have been inching it up to get my CA above 405. Sunday night I finally made it budge. 420 and 9.66.

Then how much of a water change do you do to feel like you're effectively replacing trace?


Along the lines of filter socks..... I stumbled to the rotter guy on a youtube. I can't say I'm a fan of any of his videos.... but that rotter tube... I can see it does something... but it baffles me how he tries to "sell" it.