Overflow Drainage Emergency

[newbie20]

After having successfully set up my tank initially, I didn't think it would be a big deal to swap out my sump. As with any projects, I underestimated the time and didn't anticipate all of the issues; however, I overcame them...so I thought. When finalizing the job tonight, and powering up my pump, I encountered an issue that I can't figure out. My pump is outpacing the overflow drain, and my tank is close to overflowing while my pump is sucking air and filling the tank with bubbles.

What makes this a mystery to me, is that the pump I installed is rated for lower gph than what was on there. Further, the previous pump wasn't pumping fast enough for the drain pipes, so I had to have the shutoff valves half closed, to slow the drainage so as not to overflow the sump. If anything, I anticipated having to close the drain more given the lower flow pump I was putting on.


The details are below, and I'm hoping something jumps out to somebody:
<ul>
<li>150 gallon tank (6\'x2\'x1.5\')</li>
<li>Old Sump 20? gallon - (23\"x11\"x18\")</li>
<li>New Sump Eshopps RS 210 30? gallon - (29.5\"x14\"x17\")</li>
<li>Old Pump - Pondmaster 18b - 1800gph?</li>
<li>New Pump - Coralife Turbo Sea 1270 - 1268gph</li>
<li>Old supply line - All 3/4\" PVC</li>
<li>New supply line - 3/4\" PVC and old loc line remains in the overflow, but I went with 3/4\" inner diameter flexible hose after about 1ft of 1\" PVC. However, between those two, I have a UV sterilizer integrated with about a foot of 5/8\" hose.</li>
<li>Old/New Drain Lines - I left these alone, 1\" PVC in overflow and from bulkheads. From bulkheads they converge to the middle of the cabinet with about 4\' of pipe, and join into a single 1\" PVC Drain. The only thing I modified was to redirect the drain with a 90 degree elbow and some 1\" inner diameter flexible hose, about a foot.</li>
</ul>So, It appears I increased some flow from the pump with the 1" PVC and 3/4" ID hose, but took some away with the 5/8" hose and UV sterilizer. I may have slowed some drainage flow with the 90 degree elbow. But are these changes enough to overcome the 532gph rating difference in pumps?

Does anything stand out to anyone? Any ideas?

I'm a little nervous because I have a pretty full bioload and no circulation right now other than the powerheads. I'm running a pretty good airstone up against a power head, so there's some good bubbling that I hope will easily get me through the night. I've also not yet hooked back up the skimmer. I may have to call in reinforcements, but thought I'd see if there was an "easy fix".

Thanks,
Brian

 

[elfloyd]

If I read your explanation correctly two things jump out:

1) you need a ball (or gate) valve comming out of your pump so you can throttle back the pump. This should solve the problem of too much water entering the tank and overpowering the drain lines.
2) you should not have valves on the drain lines. Too big of risk for a blockage. Drain line valves should only be used on long downhill drain lines I.e., your tank is on the main level in the house and the sump is in the basement. Also... I suggest you don't tie the two drain lines together... Again... Too much risk for blockage.

 

[jdavid]

If you are worried about oxygen dose 5 mL of hydrogen peroxide in a high flow area of your tank. You can do this three times in 24 hrs. The maximum dose I would recommend is 1 mL/ 10 gallon every 24 hours.

 

[newbie20]

elFloyd;890865 wrote: If I read your explanation correctly two things jump out:

1) you need a ball (or gate) valve comming out of your pump so you can throttle back the pump. This should solve the problem of too much water entering the tank and overpowering the drain lines.
2) you should not have valves on the drain lines. Too big of risk for a blockage. Drain line valves should only be used on long downhill drain lines I.e., your tank is on the main level in the house and the sump is in the basement. Also... I suggest you don't tie the two drain lines together... Again... Too much risk for blockage.

Thanks! I was wondering about that possibility. Had one on the previous setup, but it was always wide open. Made swapping out the pump easy, but incorporating one in my new configuration was challenging, so I skipped it since I thought there'd actually be less flow. I'll grab one in the morning and see if that does the trick.

Edit:

JDavid;890866 wrote: If you are worried about oxygen dose 5 mL of hydrogen peroxide in a high flow area of your tank. You can do this three times in 24 hrs. The maximum dose I would recommend is 1 mL/ 10 gallon every 24 hours.

Thanks for the recommendation. Right now, the airstone is behind the power head, so the power head seems to be acting like an amplifier. I've got crazy bubbling across at least half the tank. It looks good, but are you thinking that may not be enough? I'll probably go ahead and do the 5ml now so I can get to bed, then hopefully have everything addressed first thing in the morning.

 

[elfloyd]

Make sure the valve is on the pump outlet... Not the inlet. It makes a difference.

 

[newbie20]

elFloyd;890868 wrote: Make sure the valve is on the pump outlet... Not the inlet. It makes a difference.

Got it. Good to hear. The previous one was on the inlet, which is why I'd assumed the primary function was for easy swapping of the pump. The current configuration doesn't provide the space for one there, so I was going to put it on the outlet as a matter of easiness. Glad it's also the right thing to do.

 

[jdavid]

Newbie20;890867 wrote: Thanks! I was wondering about that possibility. Had one on the previous setup, but it was always wide open. Made swapping out the pump easy, but incorporating one in my new configuration was challenging, so I skipped it since I thought there'd actually be less flow. I'll grab one in the morning and see if that does the trick.

Edit:

Thanks for the recommendation. Right now, the airstone is behind the power head, so the power head seems to be acting like an amplifier. I've got crazy bubbling across at least half the tank. It looks good, but are you thinking that may not be enough? I'll probably go ahead and do the 5ml now so I can get to bed, then hopefully have everything addressed first thing in the morning.

The bubbles don't put oxygen into the water, the only place where oxygen enters the water is at the surface. If your powerhead are angled up a bit, an the surface is nice and agitated you will be fine through the night.

 

[rdnelson]

Newbie20;890863 wrote:

What makes this a mystery to me, is that the pump I installed is rated for lower gph than what was on there. Further, the previous pump wasn't pumping fast enough for the drain pipes, so I had to have the shutoff valves half closed, to slow the drainage so as not to overflow the sump. If anything, I anticipated having to close the drain more given the lower flow pump I was putting on.

You have something set up wrong on your drain lines. Based on the quoted statement above, I would guess that you had a full siphon going on the old set up. Done properly there should be no way to overflow you sump. When that set up was running did you ever do a power out test? My guess is that now you have gone to far in the other direction and no longer have a full siphon.

I would agree that you should have no valves in the drain lines and they should not join into one as Larry said.

Is there a way you can post some pics showing us the complete drain setup?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk -

 

[picoreefguy]

JDavid;890873 wrote: The bubbles don't put oxygen into the water, the only place where oxygen enters the water is at the surface.

i don't quite agree with that josh. the surface area created in a bubble is the same as surface of the water. there is still air on one side and water on the other and that will allow for gas exchange the only reason bubbles wouldn't add oxygen is if there weren't enough o2 in the air being pumped in to make the bubbles. its the same principal behind what goes on in a skimmer and why you can use one to remove excess co2 in the water and raise your ph because if gas exchange didn't happen in bubbles then you couldn't remove the co2 with a skimmer.

 

[jennm]

In gravity-fed systems, the drain can never "outpace" the pump, it's impossible.

A pump that is too strong, CAN outpace the drain, causing the tank to overflow.

In addition to what others have said (no valves on drains!!!!!!) etc., tying 2 drains into one without widening the output is likely a good part of the problem.

Also, where the pipe(s) drain into the sump, is the outlet above or below the water line? If the outlet is below the water line, either shorten it to above the water line in the sump, or cut some holes or slats in said pipe, above the water line in the sump. Trying to drain below the water line can cause back-pressure preventing the water from draining until it becomes heavy enough to push past the back-pressure. This can cause "flushing" sounds, and creates a risk of the tank overflowing before the gravity does its thing against the back-pressure.

Jenn

 

[elfloyd]

Newbie20;890863 wrote:
[*]Old/New Drain Lines - I left these alone, 1" PVC in overflow and from bulkheads. From bulkheads they converge to the middle of the cabinet with about 4' of pipe, and join into a single 1" PVC Drain. The only thing I modified was to redirect the drain with a 90 degree elbow and some 1" inner diameter flexible hose, about a foot.

Brian... one more thought: Joining the two drains together is a big part of your problem. Lets say each a 1" pipe has the capacity of 700 gpm. If these were dumping water directly into the sump (not joined) the overall system can drain 1400 gpm. However, when you join the lines you are restricted by the capacity of the single 1" drain where they are tied together and have reduced your overall system capacity from 1400 gpm to 700 gpm.

 

[newbie20]

rdnelson99;890875 wrote: You have something set up wrong on your drain lines. Based on the quoted statement above, I would guess that you had a full siphon going on the old set up. Done properly there should be no way to overflow you sump. When that set up was running did you ever do a power out test? My guess is that now you have gone to far in the other direction and no longer have a full siphon.

I would agree that you should have no valves in the drain lines and they should not join into one as Larry said.

Is there a way you can post some pics showing us the complete drain setup?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - http://tapatalk.com/m/">now Free</a>[/QUOTE]

Would adding the 90 degree elbow and hose affect the siphon? The remainder of the drain side was not touched from the way it was before.

Edit: [QUOTE=][B]JennM;890880 wrote:[/B] In gravity-fed systems, the drain can never "outpace" the pump, it's impossible.

A pump that is too strong, CAN outpace the drain, causing the tank to overflow.

In addition to what others have said (no valves on drains!!!!!!) etc., tying 2 drains into one without widening the output is likely a good part of the problem.

Also, where the pipe(s) drain into the sump, is the outlet above or below the water line? If the outlet is below the water line, either shorten it to above the water line in the sump, or cut some holes or slats in said pipe, above the water line in the sump. Trying to drain below the water line can cause back-pressure preventing the water from draining until it becomes heavy enough to push past the back-pressure. This can cause "flushing" sounds, and creates a risk of the tank overflowing before the gravity does its thing against the back-pressure.

Jenn[/QUOTE]

Thanks! To be clear, the drains were already tied into one. I didn't change that, I just redirected the output via 90 degree elbow and some hose. Also, the outlet is above the drain line.

Edit: [QUOTE=][B]elFloyd;890886 wrote:[/B] Brian... one more thought: Joining the two drains together is a big part of your problem. Lets say each a 1" pipe has the capacity of 700 gpm. If these were dumping water directly into the sump (not joined) the overall system can drain 1400 gpm. However, when you join the lines you are restricted by the capacity of the single 1" drain where they are tied together and have reduced your overall system capacity from 1400 gpm to 700 gpm.[/QUOTE]

I hear you, but I didn't change that part of the drain, and I went to a lower output pump. Weird. But, it sounds unanimous that I should now split the drain so that both overflows drain separately and directly into the sump. I'll start with that. If that doesn't provide the rate of drainage I need, I'll then put in the gate valve on the supply side to try and lessen the flow.

 

[jennm]

Are you using a hang-on overflow box, or a reef-ready tank? A 90 would slow things down a bit on the drain side, but shouldn't be that much.

Efloyd is right about the merging of 2 drains to one (although gpH versus gpM)... but the thinking is correct. If it's choking where 2 drains merge to one, that could be part of the problem.

Reef-ready drains should be able to handle about 600 gph if they are unimpeded. 2 drains should be able to handle 1200 gph if unimpeded. Obstructions of any kind will change that.

Jenn

 

[newbie20]

I'll see if I can't snap some quick pics later this morning (had to run into the office) with the wife's phone before heading out for supplies. Maybe there's something I'm not capturing in my descriptions that you guys will see right away.

I really appreciate all of the feedback. Kind of been in panic mode, hoping the fish make it through the ordeal.

 

[elfloyd]

jennm;890893 wrote: (although gph versus gpm)

jenn

:doh:

 

[jennm]

That would be one heck of a drain if it was gpm I think we all knew what you meant though... LOL.

 

[newbie20]

JennM;890893 wrote: Are you using a hang-on overflow box, or a reef-ready tank? A 90 would slow things down a bit on the drain side, but shouldn't be that much.

Efloyd is right about the merging of 2 drains to one (although gpH versus gpM)... but the thinking is correct. If it's choking where 2 drains merge to one, that could be part of the problem.

Reef-ready drains should be able to handle about 600 gph if they are unimpeded. 2 drains should be able to handle 1200 gph if unimpeded. Obstructions of any kind will change that.

Jenn

It is reef-ready. How likely is it that my old pump wasn't putting out what it was rated to put out, which I believe was 1800 gph? Also, there was a check valve on the supply side that lessened/prevented backflow. Could that have been restricting the output of the pump?

Based on the flow rates you mention above, I may still have issues with a direct drain since the pump puts out 1270 gph. Maybe I'll have no choice but to limit the pump output.

This is all so baffling! Why didn't I just leave well enough alone!

 

[jennm]

So, if I'm reading right (and I have only had one cup of coffee...)... the drains were already merged before you swapped out the pump, yes? New pump has less gph than the old pump...BUT you added a 90 to the output?

A Mag 18 at 4' of head pumps 1375 gph. I'm looking but so far, cannot find a flow chart for the Turbo Sea, but you're right, it should be pushing less than the Mag Drive since it's 1270 at zero feet.

I'd remove the 90 at the very least and see if that makes a difference, but yes, separating the drains is a good idea.

Jenn

Edit:

Newbie20;890898 wrote: It is reef-ready. How likely is it that my old pump wasn't putting out what it was rated to put out, which I believe was 1800 gph? Also, there was a check valve on the supply side that lessened/prevented backflow. Could that have been restricting the output of the pump?

Based on the flow rates you mention above, I may still have issues with a direct drain since the pump puts out 1270 gph. Maybe I'll have no choice but to limit the pump output.

This is all so baffling! Why didn't I just leave well enough alone!

Even without head loss, the 1270 gph should be OK, as I mentioned I couldn't find a chart to see what the output is at 4', but there's bound to be *some* head loss, even with a high pressure pump.

What kind of standpipes do you have?

 

[newbie20]

JennM;890899 wrote: So, if I'm reading right (and I have only had one cup of coffee...)... the drains were already merged before you swapped out the pump, yes? New pump has less gph than the old pump...BUT you added a 90 to the output?

A Mag 18 at 4' of head pumps 1375 gph. I'm looking but so far, cannot find a flow chart for the Turbo Sea, but you're right, it should be pushing less than the Mag Drive since it's 1270 at zero feet.

I'd remove the 90 at the very least and see if that makes a difference, but yes, separating the drains is a good idea.

Jenn

Edit:

Even without head loss, the 1270 gph should be OK, as I mentioned I couldn't find a chart to see what the output is at 4', but there's bound to be *some* head loss, even with a high pressure pump.

What kind of standpipes do you have?

Yes, drains already merged, just added the 90 degree to redirect the output since the new sump's configuration was the reverse of the old one. So, can't remove the 90 since the former drain output is outside of the sump.

Also, in looking at an on-line head loss calculator, it makes me wonder about not having the gate valve on the supply side like before. I can't help but think the problem is weighted toward the supply side since I did very little to the drain side. Unless somehow I created a siphon issue with the 90 degree. Though I used a lower flow pump, maybe there's less head loss now that I don't have a gate valve (though the previous one was always wide open, I'm assuming there was still some restriction), a check valve, and the hose I used has a slightly larger ID.

Durso standpipes from 1" PVC.

Edit: BTW. Lesson learned. I failed to consider that my previous set up had all of this stuff worked out. All I had to do was break it down, then re-assemble with a few replacement parts.

Should've researched further before jumping in and assuming the same success. Thanks for everyone's patience as I dig out of my self-inflicted problems.

 

[jennm]

There's no siphon on a gravity-fed drain. That's why I asked if it was a RR tank or a hang-on overflow, the latter works on a siphon. Gravity fed is just that - as long as the pump does not push more than the drains can handle, the drain is passive and just drains. Feed more water, it drains more, feed less, it drains less.

The check valve may have slowed the old pump a bit. If it wasn't running at peak efficiency, it might have pushed less than the posted flow rate. More 90-degree turns in the pump return also increases head loss and most RR tanks have at least one 90 per return - where the return pipe meets the elbow that connects to the Loc-Line nozzles - but that should not have changed from one pump to the other, so the loss should be equal - although the Mag Drive is not a pressure pump and the Coralife is, so perhaps there's less loss with the new pump, than there was with the Mag, and as such, it's actually pushing more water than the Mag was.

Are the Dursos home-made, or manufactured? The pipes on a Durso-style drain, are 1 1/4" wide, even though they reduce to 1" at the bulkhead. If you have a 1" pipe on the Durso, it may not have enough drain capacity.

Jenn