Ozone reactor

[enderg60]

jmaneyapanda;595740 wrote: Hey Dave- Im curious as to this. This was the problem I had in fiddling with with my ozone reactor. I couldnt get a good method to mix the ozone with the water in a thorough way, so I ended up "wasting" a lot of ozone to free air (rather than having it oxidize the water).

I was planning to make mine using a 1/2" venturi I have laying around, then spraying the ozone/water mix over some bio balls, then run the mix through a small carbon chamber and into the sump.

That way everything ozone-ated gets treated with carbon, and you can valve/adjust both flow of water and ozone.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

But......wait.......If your going to use a venturi/mazzei injector, doesnt that pretty much just make it a skimmer?

Daniel, Im not sure I visualize what you mean. Youre going to use a venturi on a spray bar? How do you plan on doing this? I just dont understand. I am seriously curious, because I tried it, and it boggled my caveman brain.

 

[enderg60]

Not really, just because it has foamy water doesnt make it a skimmer. The venturi is used simply as a mixing device, past that it has no relation to a skimmer. Look at the reactor in the link I posted, should give you a better idea of what its doing.

The venturi mixes the ozone and water(this is done in a contact chamber in the other reactors) Once its mixed, the water is then trickled over something like bio balls to increase contact time and allow the ozone to mix with the water. Finally the mix is run through a carbon chamber to scrub the ozone back out of the water/air before it goes back into the tank.

Skimmers allow you to simple get ozone in the tank, and when used almost no one uses carbon to clean the effluent. I dont care if you can smell it or not, ozone is not healthy.

 

[lilrobb]

That trickle chamber is pressurized?

 

[jmaneyapanda]

EnderG60;595819 wrote: Not really, just because it has foamy water doesnt make it a skimmer. The venturi is used simply as a mixing device, past that it has no relation to a skimmer. Look at the reactor in the link I posted, should give you a better idea of what its doing.

The venturi mixes the ozone and water(this is done in a contact chamber in the other reactors) Once its mixed, the water is then trickled over something like bio balls to increase contact time and allow the ozone to mix with the water. Finally the mix is run through a carbon chamber to scrub the ozone back out of the water/air before it goes back into the tank.

Skimmers allow you to simple get ozone in the tank, and when used almost no one uses carbon to clean the effluent. I dont care if you can smell it or not, ozone is not healthy.

We will have to agre to disagree, I guess. Foam fractionating (mixing air with water) IS skimming in my book. But, thats not even really my point. Im just getting at that if you use the exact same method of mixing as a skimmer, then how can it (a reactor) be more efficient than a skimmer? Why not just use a method like Mufret suggested, and run a cheaper smaller skimmer with ozone?

The link youre referring to is the PM unit? I still dont understand how that allows "better" reaction. trickling gaseous fluids over media simply allows de-gassing. Not reaction. How does this, in any way, allow better ozonation? The venturi will put the ozone in contact with the water, but once it is "sprayed", say goodbye to the contact and ozonation. The ozone will release into the air, and will no oxidize your aquarium water. That is the EXACT issue I was having with my reactor. The other effect (as Robb eluded to) is that such a reactor (as the PM one), will need to be gravity driven, and not pressurized. So it will need to sit above the sump.

As for ozone being unhealthy, whether you can smell it or not, again, we will agree to disagree, sort of. Ozone is unhealthy, true. But, you can smell ozone. If you can, its no longer ozone. Ozone is an unstable trivalent form of oxygen. Which is why it works the way it does. The only times I have EVER heard of ozone related casualties are in public aquariums, where either by human error, or mechanical error, MASSIVE amount of ozone end up in huge display, usually housing large messy fish (sharks, etc.) However, I dont think Ive ever heard of an ozone related problem on the hobbyist level. Have you?

Again, Im not trying to be argumentative at all. I just dont see that trying to do what youre doing will allow "better" ozonation. If I am misunderstanding it, please explain it. How does a spray bar system in a non pressurized setup (as in the PM unit) force ozone to reactor with teh water and not just degas and escape?

 

[lilrobb]

I agree...

jmaneyapanda;595830 wrote: We will have to agre to disagree, I guess. Foam fractionating (mixing air with water) IS skimming in my book.

It would be skimming if the foam is removed, right now it is only aeration...

jmaneyapanda;595830 wrote: trickling gaseous fluids over media simply allows de-gassing. Not reaction. How does this, in any way, allow better ozonation? The venturi will put the ozone in contact with the water, but once it is "sprayed", say goodbye to the contact and ozonation. The ozone will release into the air, and will no oxidize your aquarium water.

Yup, unless that chamber is pressurized, which will be hard to do being a trickle application.

 

[acroholic]

The PM unit is pressurized by restricting flow using the ball valve until you have a water level just above the level of the bottom opening. The water at the bottom of the reactor acts as the seal. These units are not highly pressurized either, only what comes from the air pump pushing ozone into the reactor. Most production reactors recommend the use of a Tetra Luft Pump.

 

[enderg60]

Ok lets see here. Making foamy water is not skimming. Removing the crap that bubbles to the top is skimming(like removing fat off the top of a cooling soup).

I plan to use a venturi simply to increase contact time and mixing ratios. The reactor in the link simply has a water inlet into the trickle chamber and a ozone inlet into the reactor body.

If you read the other link, his "reactor" is just a venturi flowing into 100 feet of tubing then into a pile of carbon. It does not need to be comlicated, just have a decent contact time.

I get headaches when Im around powerlines for more then 20 min and you cant smell the ozone there either so yeah...not chancing it...just not worth it when all you have to do is run some carbon.

Better is not really a good word for why to use a reactor. The idea is to be able to control your ozone flow without screwing with your skimmers production.

The incoming water pressure is what is pressurizing the reactor(valve on both intake and outlet will create back pressure) therefor a trickler will still work fine since the pressure is the same on both sides of the trickle plate.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Acroholic;595840 wrote: The PM unit is pressurized by restricting flow using the ball valve until you have a water level just above the level of the bottom opening. The water at the bottom of the reactor acts as the seal. These units are not highly pressurized either, only what comes from the air pump pushing ozone into the reactor. Most production reactors recommend the use of a Tetra Luft Pump.

Dave, where does all the air, gas go then? If there is an air pump forcing the ozone/air in, and there is water at the bottom, all the air going in has to go somewhere.

EnderG60;595842 wrote: Ok lets see here. Making foamy water is not skimming. Removing the crap that bubbles to the top is skimming(like removing fat off the top of a cooling soup).

I plan to use a venturi simply to increase contact time and mixing ratios. The reactor in the link simply has a water inlet into the trickle chamber and a ozone inlet into the reactor body.

If you read the other link, his "reactor" is just a venturi flowing into 100 feet of tubing then into a pile of carbon. It does not need to be comlicated, just have a decent contact time.

I get headaches when Im around powerlines for more then 20 min and you cant smell the ozone there either so yeah...not chancing it...just not worth it when all you have to do is run some carbon.

Better is not really a good word for why to use a reactor. The idea is to be able to control your ozone flow without screwing with your skimmers production.

The incoming water pressure is what is pressurizing the reactor(valve on both intake and outlet will create back pressure) therefor a trickler will still work fine since the pressure is the same on both sides of the trickle plate.

Again, we will need to agree to disagree. Its a argument of semantics really, but when adding a purposeful mixture of bubble to water, foam fractionation WILL take place where the organics are drawn to the air interface. If you choose to dump that back into your sump, so be it, but in a biochemicals sense, you are skimming your water. But, again, thats not my point at all. My point is, if your mixing air (and ozone) and water in the same method as a skimmer, then where is the benefit in a reactor? You can run both a skimmer and a reactor through carbon on the effluent, so I dont understand why this is the method of choice.

Using a venturi and running it through 100 feet of line is FAR superior to immediately spraying it on some bioballs. While in the line, the ozone is forced in contact with the water, and is pressurized so it cant degas. How, in any way, do venturis increase contact time or mixing ratios? As compared to what? Venturis mix gas and fluid. Thats all they do. What happens after that will determine contact time. And THIS is where ozone reactors become tricky, IMHO.

As to whether ozone helps or hinders (or does anything) to skimming ability, that is an entirely separate issue altogether.

Incoming pressure? Back pressure? I am not understanding what your talking about at all. Could that reactor be placed below the water level of the sump and work (a la any media reactor with a pump driving it)? These media reactors are pressurized, so the head drive of the pump is the limiting factor. However, if the PM ozone reactor were lowered, it would just fill with water, from what I can speculate. Does it maintain pressure where it can be used anyway aside from gravity draining? And (as per my question to Dave)- what happens to all the air (and ozone) that gets added to the reactor?

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Heres the end game to my questioning. Why not just get a Seaclone skimmer, hook up the ozone to the venturi, and have the effluent of the skimmer dump through a mesh bag of carbon?

 

[enderg60]

Its not skimming unless you remove crap. Otherwise its just making bubbles and letting the stuff redisolve back into the system. Stuff removed from bubbly water = skimming

Yes you can just get a seaclone but the ozone/air will still escape unfiltered. If you dont care, go for it.....I care.

Much like a skimmer, performance is based on contact time and surface area in contact(many smaller bubbles have more surface area then few big ones) . Running the ozone/water through a ventrui and some tubing will work, but the bubbles will collect into bigger bubbles which is bad for contact area. Running the ozone/water over bio balls keeps the surface area in contact up(this is why they are used for bio filters, lots of surface area)

As an engineer, when I have the option to build something for a purpose as opposed to just slapping something together that works...Ill build something. Boil it down and getting a reactor, a secondary small skimmer, or 100+ feet of ozone resistant tubing all cost about the same ($100-$200)

Now if we are talking $400 for a reactor, yeah Ill go with the 100' of tubing. As far as a second unfiltered skimmer goes...the amount of ozone ill be using for a 500g system, and its location close to my HVAC unit...not an option in my eyes. Just because you dont smell it doesnt mean there isnt poo on your shoe.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

EnderG60;595873 wrote: Its not skimming unless you remove crap. Otherwise its just making bubbles and letting the stuff redisolve back into the system. Stuff removed from bubbly water = skimming

Yes you can just get a seaclone but the ozone/air will still escape unfiltered. If you dont care, go for it.....I care.

Much like a skimmer, performance is based on contact time and surface area in contact(many smaller bubbles have more surface area then few big ones) . Running the ozone/water through a ventrui and some tubing will work, but the bubbles will collect into bigger bubbles which is bad for contact area. Running the ozone/water over bio balls keeps the surface area in contact up(this is why they are used for bio filters, lots of surface area)

As an engineer, when I have the option to build something for a purpose as opposed to just slapping something together that works...Ill build something. Boil it down and getting a reactor, a secondary small skimmer, or 100+ feet of ozone resistant tubing all cost about the same ($100-$200)

Now if we are talking $400 for a reactor, yeah Ill go with the 100' of tubing. As far as a second unfiltered skimmer goes...the amount of ozone ill be using for a 500g system, and its location close to my HVAC unit...not an option in my eyes. Just because you dont smell it doesnt mean there isnt poo on your shoe.

Again, we agree to disgree. respectfully. Your definition of foam fractionation is different from mine. Not that thats the point at all. So, if it end the pointless back and forth. Fine- if you dont remove the bubble outcome, using your definition, your not skimming. It doesnt matter at all, really.

Why does bioballs having a lot of surface area mean that ozone will have contact time with your water? It is completely unrelated. My large intestine has a lot of surface area too. Does that mean that ozone will help my aquarium? :thumbs:

Seriously, though, the issue youre discounting is that when you spray the water with the ozone in it onto the bioballs, the ozone laden water will degas immediately into the air in the reactor. Thats the physics of it. What purpose does the bioballs have? In a biofilter, the surface area leads to areas fir bacteria to grows and have gas exchange. In what way whatsoever does this translate to ozonation? How do bioballs keep smaller bubbles intact?

As an engineer, please explain to me how you are going to create a reactor that will mix a gas with a fluid, maintain the gas in solution in the fluid somehow, while cascading it over a degassing media immediately after putting the gas into "solution". Bear in mind, the gas doesnt go into solution. Their just little bubbles. As a visual comparison, imagine looking as a skimmer, as the pump is being turned off. In a split second, the bubbles disappear, and reactor is zero. How does this reactor design negate this occurrence of immediate degassing?

Let me ask this, since you are (possibly justifiably) afraid of ozone poisoning. Why use it? Why not just use carbon? How does carbon negate the risks of ozone. At what point does it become ineffective to do so? How do you measure this? At what point do you put yourself at risk by carbon not adsorbing properly? How do you tell? Since smell isnt a possibility for detection, per you repeatedly confusing analogies.

Again, I hope you succeed in creating this. But, I do not see how your reactor design will be efficient, nor feasible. Youll just be dumping ozone into the free air inside the reactor, after a VERY brief contact time (between the venturi and the "sprayer"), at which point the ozone will degas, and vent out the reactor (however it is vented- through carbon, etc). I need you to explain how your going to keep the ozone bubble within spraying water for me to understand how this will work.

 

[acroholic]

jmaneyapanda;595853 wrote: Dave, where does all the air, gas go then? If there is an air pump forcing the ozone/air in, and there is water at the bottom, all the air going in has to go somewhere.

I called PM and talked to one of their guys. Here is a pic of the reactor below. There is a black nipple on the injector where your ozone gets injected, and you can let the venturi just suck the ozone in, or you can inject pressurized O3/air with a Luft pump, as I stated. Using a Luft pump with an air dryer would saturate the water better because of it's increased pressure. On the top is a red check valve with a 5 psi spring. Exceed 5 psi inside the reactor and the excess ozone/air exits through the check valve, which should be filtered through carbon to get rid of the ozone, just as the water leaving the bottom of the reactor should.

So you have pressurized air/ozone coming in thru the black venturi nipple, water coming in from the feed pump, and you have an inch or so of standing water on the bottom of the reactor. So you have a sealed, pressurized reactor (up to 5 psi). The injector breaks up the ozone and does initial O3/water mixing, the drip plate on top of the reactor spreads the water out over the bioballs, and the bioballs increase the exposed water surface area even more, allowing the free ozone in the pressurized reactor to further dissolve in the water while in the reactor. Excess ozone and air leave thru the red check valve. The ozone saturated water leaves thru the ball valve on the bottom.

This reactor operates like regular pressurized reactors except it has the venturi for a bit of extra O3/water mixing, instead of just pumping ozone directly into it.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Dave,

Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately, the ozone reactor I attempted was almost identical to this and it just didnt work well at all. I didnt have a pressure valve (which I dont understand the purpose at all), but it trickled what I thought would be ozone and water over media, and all it did was seperate ozone from water. Id be amazed if this works.

 

[enderg60]

FYI

 

[acroholic]

EnderG60;600358 wrote: FYI

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1953276">http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1953276</a>[/QUOTE]

Wow....nice read.:up:

 

[acroholic]

Just read on R2R that Avast Marine has a tentative release/ship date for their Ozone Reactor of 2/9.