Parameter Question

[rk4435]

I've had trouble maintaining proper levels in my tank, I'm not sure if it is my ignorance or some other issue.

Current parameters tonight
-Magnesium 1170 (dosed Seachem supplement according to instructions)
-KH 6.8 / 2.5 Alk
-Calcium 370

I dosed Magnesium last night as it was 1170, shocked to see that it was the same tonight. I know that dosing Mag can lower Alk, and I know that I should not ideally dose Alk and Calcium on the same day, and I know that if Mag is low any Calc dosing will not be as effective.

Beyond that I'm lost. My Calcium was at 400 two nights ago but I can't seem to get a handle on the dosing regimen and do not have a desire or the room for a dosing pump. At the same time I don't want to crash my tank trying to manually do this.

I use Salifert test kits and Seachem buffers. I can say that the Alk and Calcium have moved with dosing but the Mag seems stubborn.

I used Tropic Marin Pro salt for over a year and had similar parameters so I figured that if I was going to supplement I shouldn't spend so much on salt, I switched to Reef Crystals two months ago and have not noticed any big changes parameter or coral wise.

My tank is a mixed reef, but we have had trouble keeping sensitive corals, obviously due to the parameter issues. I do a water change every Saturday, 10-12% of volume.

My trusted LFS in Chattanooga has a bio something or other major that is very knowledgeable that recommended switching to another salt. I'll look into that but could use any advise in the meantime to help get the parameters in order. I'll be testing all three of the above daily until my winter vacation is over. Stability is more important than most target numbers, but I am getting worn down trying to master the relationship between the three parameters.

 

[camellia]

Ive used Seachem 2 part for off and on years, mostly when these prams are low. It's a balanced formula. I don't know if it would help you stabilize but check it out. Hopefully someone with more knowledge on this will chime in for you.

 

[marquiseo]

rk4435;1004386 wrote: I've had trouble maintaining proper levels in my tank, I'm not sure if it is my ignorance or some other issue.

Current parameters tonight
-Magnesium 1170 (dosed Seachem supplement according to instructions)
-KH 6.8 / 2.5 Alk
-Calcium 370

I dosed Magnesium last night as it was 1170, shocked to see that it was the same tonight. I know that dosing Mag can lower Alk, and I know that I should not ideally dose Alk and Calcium on the same day, and I know that if Mag is low any Calc dosing will not be as effective.

Beyond that I'm lost. My Calcium was at 400 two nights ago but I can't seem to get a handle on the dosing regimen and do not have a desire or the room for a dosing pump. At the same time I don't want to crash my tank trying to manually do this.

I use Salifert test kits and Seachem buffers. I can say that the Alk and Calcium have moved with dosing but the Mag seems stubborn.

I used Tropic Marin Pro salt for over a year and had similar parameters so I figured that if I was going to supplement I shouldn't spend so much on salt, I switched to Reef Crystals two months ago and have not noticed any big changes parameter or coral wise.

My tank is a mixed reef, but we have had trouble keeping sensitive corals, obviously due to the parameter issues. I do a water change every Saturday, 10-12% of volume.

My trusted LFS in Chattanooga has a bio something or other major that is very knowledgeable that recommended switching to another salt. I'll look into that but could use any advise in the meantime to help get the parameters in order. I'll be testing all three of the above daily until my winter vacation is over. Stability is more important than most target numbers, but I am getting worn down trying to master the relationship between the three parameters.

-What size is your tank? I would suggest larger water changes. That is very marginal unless you have a 15g tank. You should test your tank for a week and see how your parameters change and go from there. If you have, could you please post your test results per day so we can see what is going on. If the issue is not consumption, your tank is unbalance and will need a large water change to get everything to a base (proper parameters).

-For Magnesium supplementation, I would suggest Kent Tech-M to get your monies worth. It has the highest concentration per dosage (premixed). You can ,alternatively, do the powder DIY form though to get a higher concentration per dosage. I've never seen my ALK lower from adding Magnesium. I have, however, seen the salinity rise because it takes a lot of the solution to raise magnesium when it is very low. That could be the culprit for not being able to keep some corals.

-You can dose ALK and Cal in the same day; just not at the same time. They should be dosed a minimum 30 mins a part to give each solution time to properly mix into your reef tank; otherwise, precipitation will occur. I would recommend ESV Part A and B. It is rumored that ESV cal and alk have trace elements added as well. Either way, it does well for most that use it. I used it in a nano tank and it turned all my sps from green to purple which is good and harder to do unless you have the proper traces.


-Stop using the seachem buffers for ph and so on. Just use two-part and water change. Buffers will throw your tank out of balance. Get a Hanna ALK checker. It is the best test kit to have for alkalinity.

-As for manually dosing, gather data over a week as I stated above. use that data to know how much to manually dose. If your data states that your CA dropped 20ppm from Monday to Tueday and your CA supplement states that you will dose 1ml per 25g (with your actual water gallons being 50g) to bring it up 2ppm, you will dose 20mL to replenish the CA that was consumed.

Break down: 1ml per 25g @ 2ppm per 1mL = 10ml will give 20ppm; with you having 50g which is double of 25g, just simply double the dosage to achieve the same.


Taking data and saving it will help with dosing. Otherwise you will have to do more WC to keep with your tank.


In closing, it will be a lot easier once you have the base(proper parameters) set. If you are not getting that from your salt mix, then you should change so that you can.

 

[rdnelson]

I agree with MarquiseO for the most part. You have an imbalance right now from the sounds of it. Going in the same directions a Marquise but with a little different approach here but I would recommend the following.

First off, slow and steady. No big swings or you will have buggier issues. I would stop ALL dosing o any kind. I would do multiple large water changes over the course of a week. I highly doubt you salt is the issue. Reef Crystals should have all you need and some. For that matter, if you are planning on dosing, Instant Ocean would be fine. You are just starting with a little less of what you will be dosing anyway.

After several large water changes parameters should be coming back in line. If things are a bit low, start with the magnesium. If it is low you will chase your tail trying to get the other two parameters where you want them. Once mag levels are at acceptable levels slowly start bring the cal and ALK where you want them.

Last, don't chase numbers. Close counts here. Find the sweet spot that your tank "wants" to maintain. As always, stable is better than hitting a number on the head.

For what it is worth, all decent salt mixes have the trace elements you desire. If you are doing regular water changes you are replenishing them and there is no need to dose for them. Someone with lots of experience who is trying to achieve a specific goal may want to dose some of them but for an average beginner there is really no need. Some people think they have to constantly be putting stuff in there tank which ends up causing problems. These things pretty much maintain themselves I you stick to basics. Water changes, maybe mag, cal, Alk supplements and that's about it. Of course, as you start moving to more intense livestock that changes but that is why they are listed as fi advanced hobbiest.

 

[jennm]

What Rich said.

You can tinker right to death. Back off a bit and let it find its equilibrium, then dial it in.

If you're using quality salt mix, your levels should be close enough to not do any damage while you let it settle, then you can tweak this or that.

Every time you add something, it's like hitting the reset button and the tank will try to find its equilibrium again, and the more you dose to chase numbers, the harder it gets for the tank to level out.

Sometimes less is more.

Jenn

 

[rk4435]

Thanks for the advise guys. I've set up a nice data sheet to collect the info I need for the future. Hopefully I'll find that things are a lot better after a couple of larger water changes.

 

[rdnelson]

"A couple" is good but " several" is better. I may take a few weeks with good size water changes a couple times a week. If you only do one a week that is fine but it may take more than a couple weeks. The good side of that is things adjust between water changes.

 

[rk4435]

Ok here is the parameter update, checked before the water change this evening.

Last Night
Mag 1170
Calcium 370
KH 6.8
Tonight
Mag 1185 (Was buffered last night after testing)
Calcium 410 (Was buffered last night after testing)
KH 7.0

I did a 25 gallon water change, no buffering, and I will update parameters tomorrow.

 

[skriz]

What size is your tank? What's the pH? As Rich said, do nothing more than several large water changes to reset everything. Large. Several. So long as the makeup water is good, water changes won't hurt your tank.

 

[rk4435]

I have a 90 gallon tank and roughly another 20 gallons in the sump. The PH is currently 8.0.

 

[rk4435]

I think I may have stumbled upon the likely problem.

I use a 40 gallon breeder for mixing. Every Saturday night I do my water change that is normally around 15-16 gallons. Then I immediately top the tank back off with RO/DI and start adding salt. I usually check the level around Tuesday and add salt, then again on Friday night. The return pump in the tank runs about 20 hours per day. I am usually not adding much if any salt of Friday night.

I've been reading on other threads / forums that many enhanced salts precipitate and should be used basically immediately when mixed. Therefore, much of my Mag, Alk, and Calc are possibly disappearing because of the way that I mix the product for days.

Do you guys have any knowledge about that one? It could explain my consistently low levels.

 

[rdnelson]

Don't take my word for it but.... If that were the case, wouldn't the same thing happen in the display tank? Do you keep the mixing tank heated?

I am a bit doubtful that is the issue but I see no need to do that. Mix it up an hour or two before going in the tank.

But either way, the advice above still holds true. "Several, large". Whatever caused it, the fix is to stop all dosing and do your water changes.

 

[jennm]

What is your specific gravity, temperature, pH (you have KH marked twice with different values, one is likely pH), ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate?

Get the basics in order before even thinking about the rest.

Jenn

 

[rk4435]

Jenn, the original post has the KH/ALK values. The PH was 8 last night and I keep the tank at 1.024, and nitrate is .5. I try to keep the temp at 78 but it tends to stay closer to 79.

RD, when I get the tank back up to the salinity I use it makes sense to test the water in the mix tank for Mag, Ca and Alk, then watch to see if it drops before the next large change. The mixing tank is heated as well. As I understand it the Ca and ALk drop in the DT because they are being consumed by corals. If they are precipitating out because my water mixes for several days then it would indicate that I certainly do need to change the way that I prepare the water.

 

[jennm]

In that case I'd let it settle out for 2-3 weeks without any interference other than topping off for evap and keep an eye on pH and buffer ONLY if necessary, see where you are after 2 or 3 weeks, then resume normal water changes and tweak if necessary.

Frequently I've seen that leaving it be for a while, those other parameters (CA, Alk, MG) will end up closer to where they need to be, than they did with all that tinkering, and it's a lot easier to dial in something specific without it causing a domino effect knocking other parameters out of whack.

Jenn

 

[rk4435]

Parameter update for tonight with last nights values in parenthesis and were take before the large water change.
Magnesium 1140 (1185)
Alk / KH 2.8 / 7.8 (2.5 / 7.0)
Calc 400 (410)
PH 8.0 (8.0)

 

[rk4435]

Parameter update for tonight with last nights values in parenthesis. The new values are now 48 hours post large water change.
Magnesium 1035 (1140)
Alk / KH 6.8 / 2.4 (7.8 / 2.4)
Calc 350 (400)
PH 8.0 (8.0)

 

[marquiseo]

You're going to have to do a larger WC or dose your magnesium to the proper amount. That will slow the drop of your alk. How old are your test kits?

 

[marquiseo]

Also, if you don't have any calcifying animals such as sps, your calcium shouldn't drop that much in 1 day. That means that it is precipitating out. Your tank is still unbalanced.

 

[rk4435]

All of my kits are Salifert and expire in 2017 and 2019. My Mag and Calc seemed like large drops so I tested them both twice to verify.

There is a bit of human error in the tests since they rely on the human eye to identify a minute color change. Any parameter change is perhaps debatable within 20-30 but mine seem to be rather large.

However, this is the first time I have checked all parameters seven days in a row so we will see where it goes and how it drives change in my tank.