pH and Calcium?

[cameron]

SuAsati;42378 wrote: After 2 alk test kits, and 1 calcium test kit..... being totally off.... where alk was about 2dKh off(which is a big deal when you are trying to keep the alk at 7dKH) and ca was 60ppm off, I have turned away from salifert which I did recomend in tha past to others, now I feel guilty for doing that.
You still want to use it, be my guest, but I would advice anyone who is serious about knowing where their tank stands to stay away from it, if you are not serious about the parameters, save your money and buy the dipping type.

If it is so realiable, give me one good reason why two test kits bought at 4month intervals from two different vendors, are so screwed up?

If you have them around, I will happily run a check on the test kits and see what is messed up on them. Again, I am not saying you didn't get a bad batch. What I am saying is that virtually every test kit manufactorer has created test kits out of spec. It is just a fact of life we have to live with since we are paying budget prices for these kits. Lab grade kits are for most hobbyist simply too expensive. They are far more accurate, but still expensive. At SWU the water quality guy from the aquarium was showing us just how inaccurate the lab grade test kits they use are compared to their spectrometer systems.

Salifert is a brand that over the years have proven to be more accurate than most and has less "bad batches" than most. Personally, I use cheap dip tests weekly and Salifert tests monthly. When something changes radically on the dip test, I check it against the Salifert and then on my Seachem if something isn't right. When I get a new kit, I test it against the old one to make sure the kit I got is testing correctly. I haven't gotten a bad one yet, but if I did I will know it pretty quick and will return it for a different lot number.

I think you will find these kinds of errors exist in virtually every test kit you buy. Steering people from Salifert to Lamotte isn't a bad thing as Lamotte kits are considered better by most of the people I know who have and use them, but telling people Salifert is junk I don't believe is fair. If Salifert is junk, then virtually every test kit under or around $50 is crap as well and I don't believe this to be the case.

 

[suasati]

Cameron;42386 wrote: If you have them around, I will happily run a check on the test kits and see what is messed up on them. Again, I am not saying you didn't get a bad batch. What I am saying is that virtually every test kit manufactorer has created test kits out of spec. It is just a fact of life we have to live with since we are paying budget prices for these kits. Lab grade kits are for most hobbyist simply too expensive. They are far more accurate, but still expensive. At SWU the water quality guy from the aquarium was showing us just how inaccurate the lab grade test kits they use are compared to their spectrometer systems.

Salifert is a brand that over the years have proven to be more accurate than most and has less "bad batches" than most. Personally, I use cheap dip tests weekly and Salifert tests monthly. When something changes radically on the dip test, I check it against the Salifert and then on my Seachem if something isn't right. When I get a new kit, I test it against the old one to make sure the kit I got is testing correctly. I haven't gotten a bad one yet, but if I did I will know it pretty quick and will return it for a different lot number.

I think you will find these kinds of errors exist in virtually every test kit you buy. Steering people from Salifert to Lamotte isn't a bad thing as Lamotte kits are considered better by most of the people I know who have and use them, but telling people Salifert is junk I don't believe is fair. If Salifert is junk, then virtually every test kit under or around $50 is crap as well and I don't believe this to be the case.

Without giving me an answer, you have successfully stated why others are as bad as salifert. After having spent quite a bit of money and time I think I am entiled to have my opinion and I do believe salifert is JUNK, after personally having had three bad sets, which amount to 100bucks and having read posts from several individuals that had the same issue within the past 6months, and several more individuals who are waiting for their replacement kits as promised by the manufacturer, now going on for four months. And count less individuals who still do not know that their reading are wrong. Yes, if you ask me, I would say salifert is JUNK..... and I would be right.

 

[cameron]

SuAsati;42389 wrote: Without giving me an answer, you have successfully stated why others are as bad as salifert. After having spent quite a bit of money and time I think I am entiled to have my opinion and I do believe salifert is JUNK, after personally having had three bad sets, which amount to 100bucks and having read posts from several individuals that had the same issue within the past 6months, and several more individuals who are waiting for their replacement kits as promised by the manufacturer, now going on for four months. And count less individuals who still do not know that their reading are wrong. Yes, if you ask me, I would say salifert is JUNK..... and I would be right.

If your question is why are the kits so screwed up, my answer is bring me your test kit and I will test the reagents in the kit which will give you your answer. Your asking me to blindly tell you what is wrong with your kit and without testing I can't tell you. Truthfully it could be you that is not performing the test correctly. Not saying that is the case, but it is a possible and in some other cases likely reason. If I have your kit, I can test the reagents against mine and we can find out what isn't correct real quick.

As for you being "right", you can declare your expertise on test kits if you like and state that your opinion is "right" for everyone but I am presenting an alternative view based on my opinion which IMO is no less valid. Most kits have these problems and that few other kits have been as historically accurate. It is the nature of reagent testing... it is very subjective and prone to these problems. Until we get an affordable spectometer we are all at the mercy of these kinds of test kits. Personally, I have seen crap readings from API, Seachem and Jungle. Four test kits have returned reasonable numbers for me Elos, Salifert, Lamotte and Tetra. I find the Lamotte kit to be good, but Elos is easier to use and read. Salifert is inexpensive and simple while the Tetra kit is shockingly good (so far). Anyone who knows me knows I test the crap out of everything and end up using the best bang for buck product. So far Saliferts adn Elos have been the most accurate while the Lamotte and Tetra is close enough for government work.

Currently Salifert is struggling to handle a handful of people trying to return their test kits I believe because Habib was ill for quite some time and this has effected CS, but how many other test kit manufactorers have a forum and respond to issues the way Salifert has in the past? I don't blame you for moving away especially as of late, but again historically Salifert has been a great company producing a good product.

 

[suasati]

Cameron;42427 wrote: If your question is why are the kits so screwed up, my answer is bring me your test kit and I will test the reagents in the kit which will give you your answer. Your asking me to blindly tell you what is wrong with your kit and without testing I can't tell you. Truthfully it could be you that is not performing the test correctly. Not saying that is the case, but it is a possible and in some other cases likely reason. If I have your kit, I can test the reagents against mine and we can find out what isn't correct real quick.

As for you being "right", you can declare your expertise on test kits if you like and state that your opinion is "right" for everyone but I am presenting an alternative view based on my opinion which IMO is no less valid. Most kits have these problems and that few other kits have been as historically accurate. It is the nature of reagent testing... it is very subjective and prone to these problems. Until we get an affordable spectometer we are all at the mercy of these kinds of test kits. Personally, I have seen crap readings from API, Seachem and Jungle. Four test kits have returned reasonable numbers for me Elos, Salifert, Lamotte and Tetra. I find the Lamotte kit to be good, but Elos is easier to use and read. Salifert is inexpensive and simple while the Tetra kit is shockingly good (so far). Anyone who knows me knows I test the crap out of everything and end up using the best bang for buck product. So far Saliferts adn Elos have been the most accurate while the Lamotte and Tetra is close enough for government work.

Currently Salifert is struggling to handle a handful of people trying to return their test kits I believe because Habib was ill for quite some time and this has effected CS, but how many other test kit manufactorers have a forum and respond to issues the way Salifert has in the past? I don't blame you for moving away especially as of late, but again historically Salifert has been a great company producing a good product.

Hahahaha!!!! There you go again... keep on rambling....
You said Salifert was the most reliable test kit out there....
I asked

http:///">"If it is so realiable, give me one good reason why two test kits bought at 4month intervals from two different vendors, are so screwed up?"</a>

And FYI..... I know what was wrong.... and why it is wrong... and how titrations work. But thanks for the generous offer though.

 

[suasati]

But if you insist on rambling on explaining things I already know. I think we can both save some space on these forums and quit.

 

[cameron]

SuAsati;42523 wrote: Hahahaha!!!! There you go again... keep on rambling....
You said Salifert was the most reliable test kit out there....
I asked

http:///">"If it is so realiable, give me one good reason why two test kits bought at 4month intervals from two different vendors, are so screwed up?"</a>

And FYI..... I know what was wrong.... and why it is wrong... and how titrations work. But thanks for the generous offer though.[/QUOTE]

No rambling... how am I supposed to answer that question without testing your kit? Is it user error? Is it a reagent produced incorrectly? Is it simply a problem with the size of the syringe? What are the lot numbers... are they the same? I have no idea but I can probably find out quite quickly if you bring the tests over for me to compare. I will give you the answer you seek once that happens. I am not talking in circles, I am not dodging the question, you just aren't reading my post and/or not understanding what I am saying. Nobody short of MAYBE Salifert can answer that question accurately without looking at the test kit itself. Most of the time this happens the person doing the test is doing it incorrectly, but again this may not be the case.

 

[suasati]

Cameron;42525 wrote: No rambling... how am I supposed to answer that question without testing your kit? Is it user error? Is it a reagent produced incorrectly? Is it simply a problem with the size of the syringe? What are the lot numbers... are they the same? I have no idea but I can probably find out quite quickly if you bring the tests over for me to compare. I will give you the answer you seek once that happens. I am not talking in circles, I am not dodging the question, you just aren't reading my post and/or not understanding what I am saying. Nobody short of MAYBE Salifert can answer that question accurately without looking at the test kit itself. Most of the time this happens the person doing the test is doing it incorrectly, but again this may not be the case.

Go buy a salifert alk test kit from any vendor right now and find it for yourself, then you can verify if it is user error. Then you will know that 2 boxes I had were bad and now with yours it will be three, then you can maybe give me a reason How you can call salifert a reliable test kit, now with three bad sets, if it would make you come up with an answer faster you can go to reefcentral and count all the others that have bad boxes, You can check all their batch numbers which will be all over the place.
In addition to that you can see if the syringe size is bigger/smaller, don't know why that would matter cause the amount of titrant used is not going to be that much more to give 2dKh difference which is about 0.10ml difference and I doubt one drop is going to be 0.10ml on that syringe.... or if the reagent changes color at a different pH than it should...... ****!!!! now I am rambling....

 

[cameron]

I just bought mine three weeks ago and it tests out to both my previous Salifert, my Tetra, Seachem and Elos test kits. It is also reading in line with my API dip tests.

As I said earlier, I find no fault in you recommending Lamotte and actually agree the Lamotte is a better kit. I personally think Elos is better than both. I just happend to find independant testing as well as my own that backs up Salifert as a more accurate Calcium test. Both give me more than acceptable numbers so far though and I think the Lamotte is easier to use.

As for the number of users, as of now it is a handful with alk test kit problems and there does seem to be a customer service issue since Habib went MIA. I even agreed I can see your frustration with Salifert at this moment in time. My point was this occurs with virtually every other test kit out there at some point or another. People just know about it because Salifert has a public forum unlike viturally every other test kit manufactorer out there. For this reason I... and only I as I can only speak for myself, still consider Salifert a good test kit. I would encourage anyone using a test kit to buy or borrow a similar kit from a reputable company such as Lamotte and compare the results. The two kits should equal. Once they do, you have a baseline. Each new kit you buy should match the previous kit, but it still can't hurt to dual test from time to time or take your water into a LFS for testing. I personally considered sending mine off to a lab for establishing a baseline, but found it costly to do so.

 

[suasati]

Cameron;42543 wrote: I just bought mine three weeks ago and it tests out to both my previous Salifert, my Tetra, Seachem and Elos test kits. It is also reading in line with my API dip tests.
.

You are talking about alk test right? where did you get it and what are the batch numbers and what is the exp- date?

 

[cameron]

You have to dig it out of several posts on the Salifert forums at ReefCentral:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=196">http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=196</a>

here are a couple:

[IMG]http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1117617">http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1117617</a>

[IMG]http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1039374">http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1039374</a>

If you dig through, you will find lately Salifert has been absent form the Salifert forums and why they are beginning to lose business hence why I think you have a case for recommending other kits and moving on. I think they will get their act back together sooner or later on the forums and so far I haven't run into any of the bad batches I have seen posted on their forums.

If I were you I would post my results there so others can avoid the batch numbers you found problems with.

 

[suasati]

I asked you for information about your testkit.... that you bought three weeks ago.

 

[cameron]

Don't have the box as I don't save them, but the Mg-1 is 1106-B and the rest is 1106-C. My latest calcium kit bought at the same time is 1006-C on the Ca-3. Ca-2 is 1006H.

Previous kit reads BA-01880E and BB-02641E on the alk Mg-1/Mg-2 bottles. I have similar numbers on the Calcium test kits.

Both kits bought from PremiumAquatics.com

 

[suasati]

I ask you for one set of information and you give everything else that is irrelevant, yeah!!! I could clearly see why you would think Salifert is such a good test kits.... what a waste of time....

 

[suasati]

And BTW, 1106-C/1106-B is a bad batch, your exp would be 11/2011.... Isn't it interesting How I knew that?

 

[cameron]

SuAsati;42670 wrote: I ask you for one set of information and you give everything else that is irrelevant, yeah!!! I could clearly see why you would think Salifert is such a good test kits.... what a waste of time...

And BTW, 1106-C/1106-B is a bad batch, your exp would be 11/2011.... Isn't it interesting How I knew that?

I am not sure of what "one set of information" you are requesting that I haven't provided that I can actually provide.

Maybe bad for you, but testing fine for me as compared to my Seachem and previous Salifert Test Kit as of today. I ditch the syringes and such, but the Kh, Kh-Ind, Mg-2 are from the 1106-C batch with the exception of one of my two kits which has a Kh-Ind of 1106-D.

I don't know who came off prickish here first, but this is clearly getting into that territory. My intention isn't to be a dick about this and I would just as soon drop that part of the conversation. I think you will find I am a generally nice person even when I disagree with you and at the very least respectful. If you want to take it up with me in person rather than semi-annoymnous posting on the forums, you can find me at most of our club meetings. Most people around know who I am and will point you my way.

So my last thoughts on this and I am out of this discussion are that you can't go wrong with a Lamotte test kit (beyond the usual reagent testing being flawed), that historically Salifert has been a good testing company backed up by indepedant testing and they are one of the few to have an open forum for people to post in. Most others have no open forum to post on about these things so you don't even know when a batch might be compromised and virtually all test kit companies have batches that go out with problems at one point or another.

 

[tdwyatt]

SuAsati;42720 wrote: And BTW, 1106-C/1106-B is a bad batch, your exp would be 11/2011.... Isn't it interesting How I knew that?

Hmmm...

I just received a KH/Alk Profi Test from Salifert, the Lot number on the KH bottle is CB-B2262 that tested alkalinity in a freshly made batch of IO at 35 PPT salinity and 80F at 2.4 mEq alk (with Calcium ion concentration of 360 and pH via just calibrated PinPoint pH meter of 8.19 and no CO2 exposure other than outdoor atmospheric). Just out of curiosity, what was your source of the water you tested, and what were the specs of the water sample? Just to make sure that we are comparing apples to apples, if you will PM me with your mailiing addy, I will send you a postage paid mailer that you can drop into any mailbox and mail your test kit to me and I will run a series of 10 tests and post the results of the evaluation and exact methoology I use. I'll also send the remaining test kit reagents to Habib for his evaluation at my expense. I'm not saying that there is not a possibility that Salifert may have had a bad batch, but I can say that after using the kits for the last 12 or so years that I have never had an issue with the kits and they match up to occasioinal evaluations of test samples for kit evaluation as well. To say that Salifert kits are junk it to ignore the huge record of good experiences that the bulk of the marine aquarium hobby has enjoyed with this product. If the kits are bad, I would think that they would have done a recall, hard to believe a company of the caliber of Salifert would not do this if the kits show control issues.


Anxiously awaiting your PM.