Please help us. Temp control problems that keep me awake at night(Long)

[NanCrab]

when we started the reef 6 months ago we had a basic Apex. “I” sold it against my husband’s wishes because even after getting help from tech support I didn’t trust the probes. Big mistake and now cannot afford to replace it.

I had originally purchased titanium heaters 500w with internal thermostats. Had one in each barrel of the water mixing station and one in the sump and one in our large QT. I went to get some salt water out of the barrel one day a couple of months ago and the water was HOT. There’s a plastic cap on the end of the heater tube. It was melted and smoke was coming from the thermostat control....it was fried and had completely overheated the water. Thank God it was just in the mixing barrel and not a tank. However that prompted me to remove all of them and thankfully I had some glass backup heaters.
After I sold the Apex I bought an Inkbird controller and a Finnex controller for my primary and backup heaters that I purchased from BRS (no internal thermostat).
Last week we were very thankfully sitting next to the DT when I looked over at the control panel and noticed the Finnex temp blinking (no audible or phone app alarm). I have no idea how long it was like that but the temp in the tank had climbed a few degrees but not enough to trigger the high temp alarm on the Inkbird but it scared the crap out of me. It turns out the probe had come out of the water and was reading the air temperature. If I hadn’t seen it, it could’ve been a nightmare. The reason I had the Finnex as the main and the Inkbird as the backup is because I’m too technically challenged to figure out the more advanced programming and calibration and the Finnex seemed more accurate - until last night. Sorry this is long winded, I was mostly awake all night because the Inkbird low temp alarm was going off by the tank and on my phone. Checked all probes first, all in place. Finnex said temp was 78; Inkbird 74.4. My DT is quite decked out at the moment with thermometers of every variety and they all are reading closest to the Inkbird so I switched plugs around and made the Inkbird primary. Checked both heaters and both functioning. I set my alarm to wake up every 2 hours to check on the temp on all thermometers and they are all within a degree of agreement except the Finnex which says 79 degrees, 2-3 degrees higher than all the others.

I need a new system and a new plan for this. If I lose everything because of these stupid temperature controllers it’ll be all over because I couldn’t even begin to replace everything and my stuff dying would break my heart. But I have NO IDEA what to get. Apex too expensive and wasn’t really impressed, maybe BRS dual thermostat? Anyone use that? Seneye I’ve heard some people talk about but it only gets like a 2 star review online. GHL out of budget right now. Any and all suggestions please. If anyone has a good reliable system for sale I have some money just not more than $200 or so.
Thanks,
Nancy

 

[sharktopus_prime]

Hi Nancy,

Sorry to hear about the drama. What I do for heaters is to use redundant shut-offs. My heater is a JBJ Tru Temp (NOT long-term reliable or accurate) and it has a probe and controller to shut off power to the heater if the temp is above my setting. I then plug that into my Apex (you could sub it for another controller), which also has a probe that checks temp independently and will shut off the outlet if the temperature gets too high.

So, you could use any systems with power cut-off redundantly. It will take a double failure to have a runaway heating event. Getting alerts if unusually low or high temps are detected definitely help offer another level of assurance, but I am not sure what is out there other than aquarium controllers to do that piece.

I hope that helps. Just redundant controllers and probes.

DJ

 

[sharktopus_prime]

Also, as I mentioned in your other thread a while back about probes, consistency is more important than high accuracy. The safety afforded to you by the probes is detection of swings.

For example my salinity probe is off by like .6 ppt, but it is consistently off. I check it once every few months. If I see a swing in a short timeframe, I know I could have an ATO issue. I didn’t need high accuracy to detect an emergency.

Hope that helps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ichthyoid]

If no Apex, use a backup temp controller.
I use Ranco, but many seem to like the Inkbird brand also.
Either way, have at least 2 levels of control. The thermostat of the heater, if it has one. Plus a secondary set a couple degrees higher than the first, so they don’t interfere with each other.

Fwiw, I use Eheim-Jager heaters due to the reliability I’ve experienced. Change them out after a few years, it’s inexpensive insurance.
My $0.02

 

[Reefchef]

I would also say, don't worry about having a heater in your salt bin as the water will be heated in your ro storage when you get ready to mix it. I would also look into maybe having two smaller heaters in your sump connected to your ink bird or fine controller. Set a high and a low limit alarm and I think they will cut them off I have to read on that. Also by using two smaller heaters you run less risk of over heating the water, plus if one fails you still have some heat in he tank. But as @sharktopus_prime said, consistency over accuracy at least then you will have a base point if that makes sense.

 

[NanCrab]

Also, as I mentioned in your other thread a while back about probes, consistency is more important than high accuracy. The safety afforded to you by the probes is detection of swings.

For example my salinity probe is off by like .6 ppt, but it is consistently off. I check it once every few months. If I see a swing in a short timeframe, I know I could have an ATO issue. I didn’t need high accuracy to detect an emergency.

Hope that helps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I do remember that and it is why I haven’t worried too much, however, last night proved to me that consistency is irrelevant if the probe doesn’t even detect a change in temp. While the Inkbird what thankfully alarming low temp (which was consistent with the manual thermometers, yet my main Finnex controller was still reading 78 and not kicking on the heater then that is a real problem. Thank God I have a backup system but I no longer trust the Finnex so I’m looking for an alternative redundancy system. This was a low temp alarm so shutting power off to the heaters wouldn’t have resolved this particular issue. Thanks for the time you took to respond!
Nancy

 

[lmm1967]

go buy glass heaters with internal thermostat control. Set them, plug them in to your inkbird, set your inkbird with a wider range than the heater reacts to - replace your heaters once a year.

 

[NanCrab]

If no Apex, use a backup temp controller.
I use Ranco, but many seem to like the Inkbird brand also.
Either way, have at least 2 levels of control. The thermostat of the heater, if it has one. Plus a secondary set a couple degrees higher than the first, so they don’t interfere with each other.

Fwiw, I use Eheim-Jager heaters due to the reliability I’ve experienced. Change them out after a few years, it’s inexpensive insurance.
My $0.02

I’ve had a couple of Eheim Jager’s with internal thermostats. Is that what you buy or ones that need a separate thermostat? I do have a redundancy system, it worked thank god but I no longer trust the Finnex so I need something to replace to have redundancy. I hope that makes sense

 

[NanCrab]

I would also say, don't worry about having a heater in your salt bin as the water will be heated in your ro storage when you get ready to mix it. I would also look into maybe having two smaller heaters in your sump connected to your ink bird or fine controller. Set a high and a low limit alarm and I think they will cut them off I have to read on that. Also by using two smaller heaters you run less risk of over heating the water, plus if one fails you still have some heat in he tank. But as @sharktopus_prime said, consistency over accuracy at least then you will have a base point if that makes sense.

I do have two sep heaters in my sump controlled by 2 different controllers but I no longer trust the Finnex since the probe never registered the temp drop. I guess I could get a second Inkbird but the one I bought is confusing but at least I know how to set the parameters, and it does have a phone app that alarms, maybe I’ll just get another one of those. It is that or Seneye Reef. Any thoughts on that?

 

[lmm1967]

I don't use those - I run controllers - but you don't have a controller and seems you were not thrilled with your Apex when you had it.

I can offer up a more reliable solution - but it's going to cost a little more and will require you to DIY some things and understand some basic programming etc.

I'm running a set up that is more capable than Apex or GHL without spending several thousands of dollars - but I manage and maintain it on my own, I have to do things like add connectors to the end of temperature sensors and configure them properly in the app etc. I have less than $200 in that system - but again, you have to DIY and be OK with troubleshooting, using open source software and services etc.

 

[NanCrab]

I don't use those - I run controllers - but you don't have a controller and seems you were not thrilled with your Apex when you had it.

I can offer up a more reliable solution - but it's going to cost a little more and will require you to DIY some things and understand some basic programming etc.

I'm running a set up that is more capable than Apex or GHL without spending several thousands of dollars - but I manage and maintain it on my own, I have to do things like add connectors to the end of temperature sensors and configure them properly in the app etc. I have less than $200 in that system - but again, you have to DIY and be OK with troubleshooting, using open source software and services etc.

I would love to hear more but my background is in Nursing, not it! Perhaps with a little education I could learn enough to do it. It’s not like any of the expensive, pre programmed stuff on the market is reliable, DIY might be better. Do you mind DM’ing me with the details?

 

[ichthyoid]

I’ve had a couple of Eheim Jager’s with internal thermostats. Is that what you buy or ones that need a separate thermostat? I do have a redundancy system, it worked thank god but I no longer trust the Finnex so I need something to replace to have redundancy. I hope that makes sense

Yes, glass Eheim-Jager heaters with internal thermostat’s.

 

[Adam]

I think 500w heaters are a bit big for a 120. Better to have two 200w or 250w heaters on a controller. While I do have a couple Titanium I rely on Jager's for the majority of my heaters.

 

[NanCrab]

I think 500w heaters are a bit big for a 120. Better to have two 200w or 250w heaters on a controller. While I do have a couple Titanium I rely on Jager's for the majority of my heaters.

Yeah I bought those before I knew any better. I think the ones I got from BRS are 150 or 200 watts

 

[lmm1967]

I would love to hear more but my background is in Nursing, not it! Perhaps with a little education I could learn enough to do it. It’s not like any of the expensive, pre programmed stuff on the market is reliable, DIY might be better. Do you mind DM’ing me with the details?

https://www.robo-tank.ca/Reef-pi-Pl...arium-Controller-AC-Power-Bar-Fully-Assembled - that is MOST of the hardware you would need - for $170. Add a raspberry pi zero w for $10 and a couple temp sensors and you're under $200.

BUT FIRST - read all the links at the link below - this will detail what you are getting in to and will need to understand.

reef-pi Related User Manuals

Various reef-pi operating manuals covering the basics features including step by step user manuals to set up and operate Robo-Tank hardware.

www.robo-tank.ca

You will need to gain enough knowledge to be able to occasionally troubleshoot things, usually with help from the internet and big giant threads like THIS ONE on reef2reef.

I think it's overkill for your current situation though and if I were you I would stick with Eheim Jaeger heaters plugged in to the inkbird.

Set the eheim at 77 degrees (or whatever you want) - and set the inkbird to 77 degrees with heating hysteresis at 3 degrees and alarms at 75 degrees for low and 79 degrees for high.

Your heater will keep your tank right around 77 - and if temp falls outside 75 - 79 the inbbird will alert you. If it gets above 80 degrees the inkbird will kill power to the heater.

Also - I would use a power cord splitter and as Adam mentioned plug 2 smaller heaters in to the inkbird.

 

[Wmb0003]

I do have two sep heaters in my sump controlled by 2 different controllers but I no longer trust the Finnex since the probe never registered the temp drop. I guess I could get a second Inkbird but the one I bought is confusing but at least I know how to set the parameters, and it does have a phone app that alarms, maybe I’ll just get another one of those. It is that or Seneye Reef. Any thoughts on that?

I would not have them separated. For instance if the Finnex fails and the heater is stuck on; the inkbird will alarm and turn off the heater it is running. But the other Finnex heater will still be running and if you are not able to manually turn off/remove the Finnex heater in a reasonable amount of time it could be a disaster.

I run 2 Eheims plugged into the inkbird and feel confident I will not run into a disastrous situation.

 

[NanCrab]

I would not have them separated. For instance if the Finnex fails and the heater is stuck on; the inkbird will alarm and turn off the heater it is running. But the other Finnex heater will still be running and if you are not able to manually turn off/remove the Finnex heater in a reasonable amount of time it could be a disaster.

I run 2 Eheims plugged into the inkbird and feel confident I will not run into a disastrous situation.

Do you have one inkbird or 2? One plug is for cooling and one is for heating. How do you plug 2 heaters into it? Just curious cause if that works I can do that. Either way the Finnex is going.
Thanks for your reply.

 

[Shawn]

So I might be playing with fire here, but I've got a 500W BRS titanium heater, and my apex controls it. I have a .5 degree fluctuation at most. I like it. I don't have a secondary setup on it. Just my two cents.

 

[Wmb0003]

Do you have one inkbird or 2? One plug is for cooling and one is for heating. How do you plug 2 heaters into it? Just curious cause if that works I can do that. Either way the Finnex is going.
Thanks for your reply.

I just bought a splitter. I think this is the one I bought off amazon.

Amazon.com

 

[NanCrab]

So I might be playing with fire here, but I've got a 500W BRS titanium heater, and my apex controls it. I have a .5 degree fluctuation at most. I like it. I don't have a secondary setup on it. Just my two cents.

But a new apex isn’t in my budget at this time. Of course if I would stop spending money on what I want (ie clam and plate coral and tangs) I could possibly afford what I need. Bad me.