Problems with cats: ammonia?

[jbdreefs]

I have been battling a weird ammonia spike. The tank is 6 months old and only has two small fish. 20 gallon tank.

After giving all equipment a good scrub and search for decaying matter, I have caved into my wife's theory about litter boxes affecting our tank. Crazy, I know! I bought a new test kit today: Red Sea. I have been testing with API and seachem. All say the same which is as follows:

Rodi barrel in basement: none
Rodi water in a gallon pitcher used for top-off - through the roof!
Freshly made saltwater (24 hr mix), made near the aquarium, 2 ppm.
Tank water: 1 ppm

Is it possible, yes, but legitimately?

my Rodi pitcher is the nail in the coffin for me. It makes no sense. The only difference between it and my stored water is location and exposure to air. In hind sight, this could possiblelyexplain my issues with my previous tank: also had never ending ammonia issues.

I am going to mix some more salt water tonight in the basement where my RODI is and see if I get any ammonia when mixing there. I am also going to set cups of water around the house and test after a day or so to see if I get different results in different rooms.

I understand how this seems strange.... Anyone ever have similar issues?

 

[bcavalli]

Cust curious where is you kitty litter box located? Anywhere near the tank? I googled "is ammonia potentially airborne?" Apparently in small unventilated areas in can be a problem. Since our skimmers pull in inside air it may pull it straight into your skimmer and water column I suppose? Your ATO water is a magnet for dust and anything floating in the air. You could run an airline for your skimmer outside and use a air canister with carbon to be safe. And maybe get a sealed container for holding your ATO water under the stand. If that's issue then it should help out a lot.

 

[raz0945]

John, we have 6 cats and 5 litter boxes. One of the boxes is between my 75g and 30g, I would be interested in what you find out. I have never had an issue with ammonia, my tanks should have enough good bacteria to break it down(I hope). We try to scoop out the boxes at least every day or every other day. Holley

 

[jbdreefs]

Considering all of that Brett!

Litter box is probably 20 ft away and in a different room. Also have a dog we are potty training.

 

[jbdreefs]

Thanks Holley.

It is probably chasing a rabbit down its hole...

 

[jbdreefs]

I have setup 4 test cups of RODI. 3 downstairs (one by the tank) and another upstairs.

Just had a thought. I should do two more: one where the litter is and on by the tank with a cap.

 

[rdnelson]

If you can smell it, it is airborne. Would make sense it could then settle in the water I guess. But, if you have established BB that should take care of it I would think. It would be like a never ending food supply for the BB. LOL interested in seeing your results.

 

[russ-iv]

i could possibly see traceable amounts near a litter box but not 2 ppm. That is telling me contamination. To rule it out though, id rinse the pitcher out with tap and fill it again then test for leeching. if the results were negative, take that same pitcher and put it up where a cat couldnt get at it for the night and test again.
if you suspect it is the litterbox of wholesome goodness, place it in a small closet and put another pitcher of water on the top shelf in there and lock it for the night to test in the morning.

the theory about a skimmer sucking in rank air is plausible as well but the pitcher of salt water setting has me suspect you have some other culprit at work.

my 2 cents

 

[bcavalli]

Russ-IV;1038452 wrote: i could possibly see traceable amounts near a litter box but not 2 ppm. That is telling me contamination. To rule it out though, id rinse the pitcher out with tap and fill it again then test for leeching. if the results were negative, take that same pitcher and put it up where a cat couldnt get at it for the night and test again.
if you suspect it is the litterbox of wholesome goodness, place it in a small closet and put another pitcher of water on the top shelf in there and lock it for the night to test in the morning.

the theory about a skimmer sucking in rank air is plausible as well but the pitcher of salt water setting has me suspect you have some other culprit at work.

my 2 cents

That's a good idea for testing the theory and I'm really curious what the results will be. I do know that airborne issues with co2 and contaminates can happen.

We had a house guest (crazy person) over who put charcoal in the oven and filled the house with smoke. As a result, with the high levels of co2, my ph levels dropped like a rock and I had a really hard time with water quality right after that happened. It took weeks to straighten everything out. I know that's an extreme example of what can happen and it was sudden. But, I suppose airborne contaminates over long periods of time could occur.

 

[declanisadog]

Bcavalli;1038458 wrote: T

We had a house guest (crazy person) over who put charcoal in the oven and filled the house with smoke.

What? Why would someone do that in their own house, let alone in someone else's???

 

[crew]

ammonia is one of the faster evaporating liquids on this planet, so it can become vapor very quickly. That being said, ammonia vapor is something like 95% water, and considering how much pure ammonia you'd have to put in the tank to have it register, I doubt vapor is your issue. My guess is the cat is using an extra litter box somewhere, maybe the pitcher?

 

[bcavalli]

Declanisadog;1038474 wrote: What? Why would someone do that in their own house, let alone in someone else's???

It really Happened. Like I said our house guest that was staying for that few days is certifiably nuts. It's a very long story and almost entertaining. Lol. I couldn't believe it actually happened myself.

 

[russ-iv]

the atomic weight of co2 allows for the gas exchange to happen because it is heavier than air. NH3 on the other hand is lighter than air and also less dense than co2 or o2.

take a helium baloon and let out the contents and see if any of it can be exchanged in to your tank. chances are not likely.

it has to be introduced some way. although, helium isnt water soluble while ammonia is.

just my 2 cents

 

[ringo®]

Bcavalli;1038458 wrote: We had a house guest (crazy person) over who put charcoal in the oven and filled the house with smoke.

Where did you hide the body?

 

[bcavalli]

Russ-IV;1038548 wrote: the atomic weight of co2 allows for the gas exchange to happen because it is heavier than air. NH3 on the other hand is lighter than air and also less dense than co2 or o2.

take a helium baloon and let out the contents and see if any of it can be exchanged in to your tank. chances are not likely.

it has to be introduced some way. although, helium isnt water soluble while ammonia is.

just my 2 cents

I have loved brushing up on chemistry over the past year and am trying to learn as much as I can. Since it plays such an intricle role in our aquariums. (I wished I had paid attention in highschool and college). Lol You obviously have a much greater understanding of chemistry than I do.

Question: Does humidity or ventilation effect the behavior of nh3? Or even other contaminates that maybe airborn? I appreciate you taking the time to explain. Sorry if I'm hijacking your thread John.

 

[russ-iv]

Bcavalli;1038558 wrote: I have loved brushing up on chemistry over the past year and am trying to learn as much as I can. Since it plays such an intricle role in our aquariums. (wished I had paid attention in highschool and college). Lol You obviously have a much greater understanding of chemistry than I do.

Question: Does humidity or ventilation effect the behavior of nh3? Or even other contaminates that maybe airborn? I appreciate you taking the time to explain. Sorry if I'm hijacking your thread John.

it is mostly physics and fluid dynamics.

if we were talking chemistry then technically you would have ammonium hydroxide if nh3 was in water/ dissolved in water vapor. nh4oh which is heavy enough to get in the tank.

 

[bcavalli]

Russ-IV;1038561 wrote: it is mostly physics and fluid dynamics.

if we were talking chemistry then technically you would have ammonium hydroxide if nh3 was in water/ dissolved in water vapor.

Dealing with the chemical nature of ammonia (physics is beyond me) lol in say household products like windex or in a Johns case the potential of contaminates in an enclosed environment with a high level of humidity, allow nh3 to become airborne? If so, would there be a long term effect of those contaminates which may remain in the air over time causing an accumulation to build up? I know I'm crazy OCD about this hobby and am always trying to advance my knowledge. Sorry about all the questions.

In my circumstance, my ORP (I know it's not a complete scientific measurement, more than anything it's an indicator of a potential issue) dropped over 100mv almost immediately. The only time I see more than a 5mv differential is when adding prime and I'll only see it drop 10mv then it will return to its normal level within a few hours. My airborne contaminates took several weeks of water, carbon and wet skimming to correct. Only then did my ORP finally return to its near normal levels.

 

[crew]

NH3 is going to go airborne pretty much 100% of the time unless you stop it from doing so (keeping it in a gas container, for example). The problem with ammonia in your tank isn't going to be coming from ammonia gas. It's extremely difficult to contain, and on the off chance that you have it in your house, it's escaping pretty quickly pretty much straight up through your ceiling. There is pretty much nothing you could do in your house to cause a serious ammonia build up that you wouldn't immediately notice, so I wouldn't worry about that.

The issue very well could have come from ammonium hydroxide (household ammonia, windex, etc) although still unlikely in my opinion to have been caused by an airborne issue unless that issue was overspray (spraying windex near the tank, for example). Ammonium Hydroxide isn't going to evaporate Ammonium Hydroxide - it's going to evaporate Ammonia gas (NH3) and water vapor. But I wouldn't worry about them recombining in the air or in your tank. NH3 has an extremely low boiling point and is pretty much rocketing out of ammonium hydroxide the second it gets the chance. It's not going to recombine with any vapor that it comes across as it floats up either unless you have a serious source of gas or a serious source of water vapor (the aquarium would have to be huge).

In laymen's terms - if you opened a household bottle of Ammonia (ammonia hydroxide), it wouldn't take long before you had a bottle of water with some scents or dyes added and the nh3 was long gone.

 

[russ-iv]

Bcavalli;1038564 wrote: Dealing with the chemical nature of ammonia (physics is beyond me) lol in say household products like windex or in a Johns case the potential of contaminates in an enclosed environment with a high level of humidity, allow nh3 to become airborne? If so, would there be a long term effect of those contaminates which may remain in the air over time causing an accumulation to build up? I know I'm crazy OCD about this hobby and am always trying to advance my knowledge. Sorry about all the questions.

In my circumstance, my ORP (I know it's not a complete scientific measurement, more than anything it's an indicator of a potential issue) dropped over 100mv almost immediately. The only time I see more than a 5mv differential is when adding prime and I'll only see it drop 10mv then it will return to its normal level within a few hours. My airborne contaminates took several weeks of water, carbon and wet skimming to correct. Only then did my ORP finally return to its near normal levels.

nh3 is always airborne. fill a balloon with pure nh3 and itll float.
nh4oh or ammonium hydroxide would just condensate, and evap like crew previously stated.

tbh to get 2 ppm from condensating is slim to none. gas exchange.. same way. it has to get above the air but below nitrogen and helium

 

[russ-iv]

crew;1038570 wrote: nh3 is going to go airborne pretty much 100% of the time unless you stop it from doing so (keeping it in a gas container, for example). The problem with ammonia in your tank isn't going to be coming from ammonia gas. It's extremely difficult to contain, and on the off chance that you have it in your house, it's escaping pretty quickly pretty much straight up through your ceiling. There is pretty much nothing you could do in your house to cause a serious ammonia build up that you wouldn't immediately notice, so i wouldn't worry about that.

The issue very well could have come from ammonium hydroxide (household ammonia, windex, etc) although still unlikely in my opinion to have been caused by an airborne issue unless that issue was overspray (spraying windex near the tank, for example). Ammonium hydroxide isn't going to evaporate ammonium hydroxide - it's going to evaporate ammonia gas (nh3) and water vapor. But i wouldn't worry about them recombining in the air or in your tank. Nh3 has an extremely low boiling point and is pretty much rocketing out of ammonium hydroxide the second it gets the chance. It's not going to recombine with any vapor that it comes across as it floats up either unless you have a serious source of gas or a serious source of water vapor (the aquarium would have to be huge).

In laymen's terms - if you opened a household bottle of ammonia (ammonia hydroxide), it wouldn't take long before you had a bottle of water with some scents or dyes added and the nh3 was long gone.

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