RODI and mixing station project

[danh]

I'd like some help deciding between two options. I can either put my unit in my garage or in my "shed." It's an attached building in the back of the house. Garage is insulated but still has a lot of temp fluctuation. The shed is not insulated. It may freeze. I feel like that may tell all of the story I need.

In both places I can run a fresh and waste water line fairly easily. In the shed I may collect the waste water, at least in the summer, for watering the grass. Is waste water ok for that?

Space wise, I think I can store 100 gallons or so either way. The shed can handle more as I don't need to space to park a car in there. I'll have about 300g of sw in the house, so maybe I need to go bigger than 100g. Maybe 100g of mixed and 100g of fresh ro. I may be able to do that in both areas.

The shed is on the same pad as my covered back patio. I have actually been planning on running water out there to build in a counter and sink so this may just accelerate that plan. I have two other concerns with the shed. I have lawn fertilizer, equipment, gasoline and oil out there. I can keep it on the other side of the ~12x12 shed but should I be concerned?

Of course the garage is a garage. Where I'd put the station would be right in front of where my wife parks her car. We also do other projects in the garage where saw dust could be a concern.

Maybe it really only matters either way if I use containers that are open?

Any other tips? Seems like mounting the containers off of the ground high enough to drain them in to whatever I'm using to transport the water to the tanks is a good idea. Anything else?

 

[Adam]

Where are your tanks in the house relative to both locations? Also depending on where you water main comes in the house it could play a part too. If you can attach to the main before the pressure regulator you'll have higher pressure to feed the RODI system.

 

[danh]

My house has "good" pressure.

I'd say I'm topping off 10-15g/week plus 10g water change on the 93g. The 140 is going to be FOWLR so I'll try to limit the evaporation a little bit, so let's say 20g/week top off and a max of 50g per week of water change in the future. The 5g probably doesn't need to be figured in.

That's 100g per week. Do I need extra pressure?

 

[enderg60]

If you have space the 275g water tanks are a great bang for your buck. You can get them on pallets with the metal cage for under $100 on craigslist. I got two and cut the tops off to get them in my house so they are only 200g now

If you have power to your shed a sink can be run off a garden hose with a small point of use electric water heater for hot water.

yes waste water is fine to use for pretty much anything. Ive seen it used to fill pools, fill washing machines and water plants. My waste water goes to a section of my garden.

When storing water in a shed or garage be aware the water may get too hot in the summer and too cold in the winter. So plan accordingly.

Just keep a top on the tanks and you will be fine. Mine is in my basement next to my shop area. I get dust in my water here and there and it usually stays at the surface and can be skimmed off with a fine net.

Be sure you can get the tanks out to clean them and raising them to be able to drain is a good idea but not needed if you have a wet vac(which would be a good idea anyway)

For water transport....get a long enough hose (garden hose with the metal ends cut off works well) and a decent size pump. The whole point of a setup like this is to not carry water around. I use the one pump to both mix the salt and pump it to the tank and its a mag 18 because I dont like waiting for water to move.

if your sump is large enough and elevated like mine is, you can drain it and refill it for a water change without even turning the system off and the best part is I can do a 100g water change in under 5 min.

 

[enderg60]

You DO NOT want to hook it to the city pressure. Its simply to high and will blow out your membranes.

My PRV went out at my house and I was seeing 140+ psi, I went through 2 membranes in 3 months. Booster pumps only boost you to 60-80 psi.

And again part of the point is being able to not worry about how long it takes to make water. thats why they have float valves for RO units.

 

[danh]

The 93g is in my bedroom on the second floor. It's POSSIBLE that I could plumb that sump in to the shed. It would take a lot of work though, not a simple task. Maybe in the future - it would make ATO and water changes a lot easier to have the sump in the same room as the RO and mixing station.

The 140 will be on the first floor in the living room. I could possibly run an RO line to it for ATO from the shed.

 

[Adam]

It's really hard to say what would be the best without getting a lay of the land. My system is in my basement and I've done as much as I can to work with gravity and not against it. Everybody's setup is going to be different and the nearest route from A to B may not be the easiest or even feasible to get done.

In planning how much to store I would look at your largest tank, in you case the 140, and plan to store enough for a complete failure. I have approximately 250 gallons in mine and at any given time I have between 150 and 210 gallons on hand. Within 24hrs I have the capacity to process 300-350 gallons. Overkill, maybe. Piece of mind, yes.

Ender, If you're running a piggyback system like I am then hooking up to the main before the PRV is the best option. In 16 years I haven't seen my pressure over 100psi it usually runs 96-98. After the prefilter & carbon I run right at 80psi.
With 140+ I would bet you are in an area that is the exception. Do you live right next to a water tower? I be surprised if more things didn't blow out when the house was subject to that high of pressure.

 

[grouper therapy]

anit77;1091241 wrote: It's really hard to say what would be the best without getting a lay of the land. My system is in my basement and I've done as much as I can to work with gravity and not against it. Everybody's setup is going to be different and the nearest route from A to B may not be the easiest or even feasible to get done.

In planning how much to store I would look at your largest tank, in you case the 140, and plan to store enough for a complete failure. I have approximately 250 gallons in mine and at any given time I have between 150 and 210 gallons on hand. Within 24hrs I have the capacity to process 300-350 gallons. Overkill, maybe. Piece of mind, yes.

Ender, If you're running a piggyback system like I am then hooking up to the main before the PRV is the best option. In 16 years I haven't seen my pressure over 100psi it usually runs 96-98. After the prefilter & carbon I run right at 80psi.
With 140+ I would bet you are in an area that is the exception. Do you live right next to a water tower? I be surprised if more things didn't blow out when the house was subject to that high of pressure.

That is where mine sits at as well (90psi). I have mine before the PRV as well but if someone wanted they could install an additional PRV just for the rodi unit instead of running the booster pump after a PRV.

 

[Adam]

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Adam]

Dan, do you have room in the garage or shed for something like this?

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Or this?

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IBC Totes are good but they can be hard to place. Stacking barrels may be better for you.

 

[danh]

I'd have to get a pump that could handle it but I could run a hose from the shed, out the door over the tin roof and upstairs to the 90g. If I build a strong enough stand for the container I may be able to gravity feed it to the 140 from the shed. I can get the full container in my shed, it's got french doors.

I can heat the water in the winter. I'm not a fan of cooling it in the summer though... not with a chiller at least. I have a deep freezer though. I could run a hose through the freezer... or just keep a few jugs of water frozen it and throw it in before I used the water.

I guess though like any water source, I need to consider the lines freezing in the winter... That's my biggest concern with the shed.

 

[danh]

I'll get some pics when I get home. I've already got some racks in the shed and shelves in the garage.

 

[danh]

How much water would y'all expect I could produce after my prv? It will be simple in both areas to run the water from a sink on the other side of the wall.

 

[Adam]

Danh;1091252 wrote: How much water would y'all expect I could produce after my prv? It will be simple in both areas to run the water from a sink on the other side of the wall.

Lots of variables. PSI, number of membranes, membrane type, with or without a booster. How much water do you want to make in a day is the main question.

It doesn't matter where you put the RODI system as long as you have room to change the filters, can handle some spillage or put a bucket under it and that it wont freeze in the winter. The 1/4 waste and filtered lines can be run quite a distance. Start with the highest PSI and work from there.

 

[danh]

So 100 gallons per week is what I need for water changes. About 275g of water running in the two systems. I don't really think I need to make more than 50gpd. Less would be fine. I'd prefer not to run a booster.

I'm worried with where to put the containers I guess more than the unit. In both locations for the containers I can keep the ro unit inside and just run the lines to the shed or the garage. It likely wouldn't freeze in the garage but it's possible. I assumed that it WOULD freeze in the shed. I'm ok with putting a heater in the storage tank itself but what about the lines? Unless there's a constant flow they would freeze.

 

[Adam]

Ok, so the PSI is going to be the main factor in how much you filtered water to can product over a given time. If you can't plumb it off the line before the PRV (Most houses have 1 spigot line outside that is run before the PRV) that doesn't get a lot of use. If you put it under a sink and that one gets a lot of use the pressure will bounce around every time someone uses it.

With the storage container location. Pick the one that is the closest to the 140 with the easiest run for a pipe or to drag a hose to. You can make either work.

 

[danh]

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Lay of the land

 

[danh]

I assume the water is entering the house at the opposite front corner from the garage. That's where the meter is. I don't know where the access is to my prv. There is a spigot at that corner.

What is the normal pressure inside a house and how much water can I make with that pressure?

 

[Adam]

I'm assuming you're on a slab and no crawlspace, right? If so how are you planning on running water to the patio area, from under the kitchen sink and through the wall?

Where does the water main enter the house? I ask this because I like the shed for the storage/mixing placement. Hoses will be easily to pull to either tank and possibly even run a hard line to the both tanks. A hard line can be run out side the house above the kitchen window and french doors. They make a thermal wrap for pipes that use an electrical connection to heat the piping so it won't freeze in the winter. Also the 140 line will be shaded from direct sunlight.
What I don't like is using the kitchen sink line for the rodi. Under sink drinking water systems do not see the kind of use that the systems for reef keeping do and the constant pressure swings from using the sink when making filtered water probably isn't good for the ro membrane, they like a constant pressure. A booster pump might be the way to go if this is the only location you can use. Maybe I'm wrong and @JennM can shed some more light on this.

In the shed you can put 2 55 gallon drums horizontal as high as you can for RO storage. Then put a Brute can or open top drum next to them for mixing. The drums will be sealed & vented to the outside so any vapors from gasoline shouldn't be an issue. In the winter remove the gas in the shed, in the equipment too, and throw a small electric heater in there for the really cold nights.

What do you think?

 

[Adam]

Danh;1091296 wrote: I assume the water is entering the house at the opposite front corner from the garage. That's where the meter is. I don't know where the access is to my prv. There is a spigot at that corner.

What is the normal pressure inside a house and how much water can I make with that pressure?

The PRV is "Usually" within a few feet from a spigot. If you have two spigots then the one with the higher pressure is the one the the PRV should be close to. You can get a screw on pressure gauge at a hardware store. Connect it to both spigots and note the pressure (Do this when NO water is being used in the house). The lower one is what the pressure is set to at the PRV. 40~60psi.