Running ULNS vs keeping nutrients more than just detectable.

Adam

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I'd like to have a discussion on just nutrients. Everything below is under the assumption that all other parameters are stable and in the proper range and that you have suitable lighting.

I have read a good bit on the nutrient requirements of coral over the last couple years. Without getting too technical and long winded... I know on most every coral reef across the globe, the nutrient level in the ocean water column is near nonexistent. I've also seen it mentioned in studies that these samples are usually taken in a specific time of the year, under the most ideal conditions. There is hope they can get more samples taken at different times of the year, like the rainy season, to compare values. At the moment, there is not a lot of information regarding runoff at reefs near smaller land masses. What is somewhat known is that there are times when more nutrient rich water is driven up from the ocean depths. This can happen during major storms or at times when there are large scale changes in the ocean currents. The wide time frames between occurrences should also make them an exception and not the rule as far as we're concerned (That is unless you stir things up the way I describe below). We all know that there are lots differences to wild coral reefs in open oceans vs our minute tanks. But one big difference is that on the reefs there are frequent phyto & zooplankton blooms that happen at night. These wild corals get most of their organic nutrient requirements from feeding on these nighttime blooms that our tanks don't naturally have.

I believe that in a ULNS system, sometimes the nutrients are taken up faster by the export method the aquarist has implemented, and the coral do not get enough, fish or no fish. Otherwise why are some people seeing muted color with poor growth and others are thriving? There must be some other common denominator between those having issues with a ULNS and those that aren't. In my mind that has to be feeding, nothing vs direct or broadcast coral feeding. I have seen the results of people that have had zero nutrients in the water and struggle with color and growth. But I don't know if or how much they feed their coral specifically. The common thing said to these people is feed more, add more fish or dose. But I seldom see it asked if they feed the coral. If these people do start dosing NO3 and possibly some PO4 the corals bounce back pretty quick and color up.

I initially thought that I didn't care about nutrient levels as long as they didn't get too high and there were no issues, like GHA, Diatoms or other nuisance algae. I have never been a big coral feeder. I did use some of the FeedMeAlgae products for a time, but I was never very consistent. At the same time my nutrients were seldom ever at or near zero and it's not something I'd ever striven for. Other than dosing amino's, coral feeding for me has been creating a detritus storm a couple times a week after lights out or what the coral gets from uneaten fish food. The more I think about it the more I think keeping higher nutrient levels puts us much closer to the tipping point where something bad happens. Why not keep things lower and keep the coral happy and colored up at the same time? This gives us more time to react if things start to climb.

I'd like to hear from everyone, whether you run ULNS or not.

What are your NO3 & PO4 levels?

What do you primarily feed the fish, Pellet or Frozen?

Do you regularly feed your corals?

If so, how often and what time of the day?

What products do you use to feed coral?

Are you happy with the coral appearance?

Do you have reoccurring algae issues?
 
I do not run ULNS - too much to manage for me trying to get to this point.

My parameters for starters:
  • Alk 8.2-8.5 dkh (tested weekly)
  • Calc 420 - 440 ppm(tested monthly)
  • Mag 1600 ppm (tested monthly)
  • Nitrates 5-25 ppm (tested weekly)
  • Phosphates .03 (tested every 3 weeks before gfo refresh)
Daily fish feeding: Dry pellets x2 (5 different types mixed), about 2 sq. inches of hikari mysis soaked in Selcon, and 1 cube of either SF Bay Mussels, Spirulina Brine Shrimp, Carnivore Cuisine, & Marine Cuisine.

I do not feed my corals. Never saw the need.

No real algae issue, except diatoms on the sandbed that my conch enjoys munching on.

Tank appearance - I'm happy with it.

My set up is for low maintenance - I perform bi weekly 18G water changes (sandbed vacuum) & every 3 weeks refresh 1/3 cup GFO mix with 2/3 cup Carbon.
 
What are your NO3 & PO4 levels?
NO3-2.5-5 PO4-0.01-0.03

What do you primarily feed the fish, Pellet or Frozen?

Primarily frozen

Do you regularly feed your corals?
Yes

If so, how often and what time of the day?
afternoon on weekdays 1-2x, 3-4x on weekends

What products do you use to feed coral?

LRS Reef Frenzy

Are you happy with the coral appearance?
80%

Do you have reoccurring algae issues?
Yes but very small patches that come and go
 
What are your NO3 & PO4 levels?
NO3-2.5-5 PO4-0.01-0.03

What do you primarily feed the fish, Pellet or Frozen?
Primarily frozen

Do you regularly feed your corals?
Yes

If so, how often and what time of the day?
afternoon on weekdays 1-2x, 3-4x on weekends

What products do you use to feed coral?
LRS Reef Frenzy

Are you happy with the coral appearance?
80%

Do you have reoccurring algae issues?
Yes but very small patches that come and go

What type of corals are you keeping? I thought Reef Frenzy was for fish?
 
What type of corals are you keeping? I thought Reef Frenzy was for fish?

Mainly SPS. Reef frenzy has oyster eggs and ovarian tissue like Oyster Feast. I cant confirm all the corals consume this. Only a few catch a small piece with their polyps. I target feed them the "juice" and tiny pieces left over from feeding the fish.
 
I have found a good overview of studies which summarizes coral nutrition (link below). A couple of other thoughts-

-low or undetectable soluble NO3 or PO4 does not necessarily mean that nitrogen and phosphorous are not present. Just that they are not present in a free inorganic (measurable by our test kits) form.

-much of the nutrient content in reef waters is bound up in a wide spectrum of flora and fauna, dominated by bacteria/cellular parts/proteins/amino acids, etc., upon which others feed or are indirectly dependent.

-reef waters, unlike aquarium water, have a virtually unlimited amount of nutrient content (in any form), due to the sheer massive volume of the seas. Our tanks are very much artificial in this respect. We can compensate to some degree via automated or highly disciplined manual dosing.

 
Here is a great article on the interaction of microorganisms and corals, and promoting the concept of probiotics for corals -

 
This is an awesome topic.

My nitrates stay pretty low , my phosphate on the other hand is always high ..like .2ppm. all other parameters are Normal.

I feed fish only a couple times a week . (2max)Usually live brine shrimp or a third of a cube of frozen mixed reef food. I spot feed corals once a week . Usually some reef roids with a few drops of coral amino . Nothing major and small amounts . Occasionally I'll give some if the lps a pellet if I think of it . ( Acans ,candy canes,Duncan's ) I also have a constant minor algae problem ..that I've just grown to accept. This is in a 29 gallon set up with 5 small fish and approximately 50 pieces of coral .

From what I have read nutrients and available nutrients are very different . Just cause you have high phosphates doesn't mean they are actually available to the corals as food ,same with nitrates really . This applies to the ocean as well . There's always available nutrients for corals , although it may be super low levels it's mostly a usable form ..at least that's what I have gathered. Kinda like having a freezer full of frozen turkey ,you have lots but it's useless until it's defrosted and cooked .

In the new tank I'm going to take a different approach and run more carbon,gfo,bigger skimmer bigger fuge and more mechanical filtration. I'm going to attempt to basically bottom out the nutrients and add back what I need to keep levels acceptable vs always fighting to lower them ... always easier to add then remove .

Just my take on things IMG_20200201_180345.jpg
 
I have found a good overview of studies which summarizes coral nutrition (link below). A couple of other thoughts-

-low or undetectable soluble NO3 or PO4 does not necessarily mean that nitrogen and phosphorous are not present. Just that they are not present in a free inorganic (measurable by our test kits) form.

-much of the nutrient content in reef waters is bound up in a wide spectrum of flora and fauna, dominated by bacteria/cellular parts/proteins/amino acids, etc., upon which others feed or are indirectly dependent.

-reef waters, unlike aquarium water, have a virtually unlimited amount of nutrient content (in any form), due to the sheer massive volume of the seas. Our tanks are very much artificial in this respect. We can compensate to some degree via automated or highly disciplined manual dosing.

I will read those articles when I get home tonight. Thank you for posting them!

Do you think that as we get better and better at nutrient export that some aquarists have stripped their system of usable NO3 and the coral suffers as a result?
If someone has a very good export system in place with a long light schedule on it and decent sized coral mass that has a normal light schedule as well, but they're light feeders. I can see where this system will get deficient in NO3. Without a modification to feeding or reducing the effectiveness of their export the coral would then suffer. This then leads to nutrient dosing and things start getting better.

I'm trying to see what the correct correlation is between export and leaving enough soluble NO3 with out having to dose it. We all agree stability is key with reef aquariums. Just because the Alk, Cal and Mag are stable doesn't mean it's good if that stability is at too low of levels, say Alk 5.0; Cal 300; Mag 1100. Wouldn't the same hold true for NO3 and to a lesser extent PO4? Or am I over thinking it?
 
Yes, absolutely!
NO3 tends to drop faster than PO4 in most reefs. Hence, people may have found it necessary to dose nitrogen. I prefer amino’s for this (organic nitrogen), or strontium nitrate as an inorganic form. The strontium is used in small amounts by corals to make aragonite. It also helps in reducing phosphate.
 
Yes, absolutely!
NO3 tends to drop faster than PO4 in most reefs. Hence, people may have found it necessary to dose nitrogen. I prefer amino’s for this (organic nitrogen), or strontium nitrate as an inorganic form. The strontium is used in small amounts by corals to make aragonite. It also helps in reducing phosphate.

Could cutting the export photoperiod be another option? Or do you think this type of dosing is a better approach?

I don't mind making corrective doses for things like Alk, Cal, Mag and micros. Even Nitrate if I have to. But to need to make that part of a daily routine seems to add more complication in my mind.
 
Understood.
I want as natural a photoperiod as possible. So around 12 hrs., with seasonal variance if possible/programmable.

I’m going with dosing just 2 things.
-diy All for Reef (based on Tropic Marin’s product)
-amino acids, possibly with strontium nitrate

I was going to bring my denitrification filter back out, but have decided to try the above first.

I really want a simple & balanced method.
 
Understood.
I want as natural a photoperiod as possible. So around 12 hrs., with seasonal variance if possible/programmable.

I’m going with dosing just 2 things.
-diy All for Reef (based on Tropic Marin’s product)
-amino acids, possibly with strontium nitrate

I was going to bring my denitrification filter back out, but have decided to try the above first.

I really want a simple & balanced method.
I should have been more specific above. When I said cutting the photoperoid, I meant on the export system, not the display. Many people run their Fuge or ATS lighting for up to or over 18hrs a day.

I plan on running a CARX and dosing Kalk. For trace & Amino's I've had good success with Brightwell's products. The DIY All for Reef really sounds good and I may switch to it instead of Kalk.

For NO3, I really don't want to be doing any more dosing other than an occasional one off correction. I want to keep things simple & balanced too. I'm hoping I can find it by adjusting the ATS light schedule with the amount fed.
 
Ah, of course, that makes more sense to adjust the ats photoperiod.

I bought a separate algae fuge. After the system cycles and begins to stabilize, I’ll watch nutrient levels and determine whether to bring that on line. If I do, it will be run on a counter cycle/at night.
 
Testing low nutrients doesn’t mean there are low nutrients in the system... rather, It means there is a low amount of accumulated nutrients dispersed in the water.

Many of y’all probably have experience with mass balances in one form or another. But for those that haven’t:

accumulation = Input – output + Generation -Destruction

In this simplification, we are looking at the water, then coral food and fish waste are our inputs, and corals and algae taking in the nutrients are our output. To keep things simple, we can ignore generation and destruction for now. To interpret this, if accumulation is low, it does not mean that our inputs are low. All it tells us is that our outputs are matching our inputs. This is called being at “steady state”. If there is an imbalance, then accumulation will increase. Most systems will adapt to a steady state environment, which is likely why natural reefs, with their great biodiversity, are quick to get back to 0 accumulation of nutrients.

Maintaining a low accumulation that is within a safe range is not bad (in my opinion). Conversely, having zero accumulation does not mean that your corals are receiving less food (I.e. You can have equal output in either scenario). However, at steady state, you could potentially be creating a limiting nutrient and thereby not maximizing growth. This is not necessarily a bad thing though either, and does not mean that growth is being restricted/capped. It is a fair analogy to think of this as ’possibly regulated growth‘. However, growth/color/etc could potentially still be maximized... It just notes that both options become a possibility in this case.

I run a ULNS.
  • Nitrates test undetectable (<0.25ppm)
  • Phosphates are usually around 10-20 ppb lately
  • I don’t feed coral hardly ever. Maybe once or twice a month, if I feel like it.
  • Not a heavy bio load (some damsels, a goby, a basslet, and 1 young Tomini tang in a 120g display)
  • Fish feeding is maybe 5-6 days a week, once per day, in the morning, frozen food mostly, occasionally pellets
  • No major algae issues. I had some turf algae that was starting to grow. Given that nothing really likes turf algae, Vibrant recently came to the rescue to wipe it out before it got bad.
  • Corals look great! Amazing color all around. Softies, LPS, SPS including 1-2 dozen designer Acros and multiple anemones. Everything also has good polyp extension, and good growth.
Hope this data helps! Great thread
 
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Also, Dr Luisa Marcelino of Northwestern University is currently creating a Bleaching Response Index (BRI). In this, she is investigating the relationships between corals and their symbiotic algae’s, specifically in their response to thermal stress (e.g. corals bleaching).

It would be a natural progression of that research to investigate algal responses to other stimuli, and could be used to explain color expression in corals.
 
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