I might have to try Vibrant because I have some turf algae growing on my rocks.
Running ULNS vs keeping nutrients more than just detectable.
- Thread starter Adam
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Removing coral growth from the equation. Do you think it's possible, with a very efficient export system, that there can be a very limited nutrient situation created in some systems? Even if the export system isn't the most efficient but it is removing a greater amount than is being introduced by the aquarist.
I got cold beer!
Reef roids will raise your phosphates, they do mine, I cut way back on it.
Absolutely, that is a possibility. Nutrient export in that case would refer to algal growth, as nutrients would not be captured by filter socks or skimmers. So if you had enough algae growing, it could make a low nutrient system on its own. This is why many advocates of ULNS suggest a large refugium.
Another possibility that is non-coral that would take in nutrients is filter feeders like sponges and clams. But I assume we are grouping those with corals.
I think that the people seeing colors get muted and stunted growth are either exporting too much or feeding too little. This will come into play more as systems mature and the coral mass increases. Then you have a situation where the export system and the coral are competing for available nutrients and the export is winning.
@jcook54 for instance was seeing this play out when he had a couple small fish in his frag tank and a macro growing on some of the rock in there. He doesn't have an extensive export system in place but the tank wasn't being fed much and the macro was growing well. His test results were showing zero for NO3 & PO4. After adding another fish or two and dosing Sodium Nitrate the coral colored back up. This type of complaint and solution is becoming more common. I would think there has to a balance where these nutrients are at least detectable for the coral to thrive. Otherwise why is the coral responding to NO3 dosing?
While nutrients are an important variable, the environment is equally if not more important. I don’t think I can make the same generalized statement for people seeing stunted corals or colors. I’ve seen both these occurrences happen is extremely heavily fed tanks, but each was due to different environmental factors.
Eric_n_Ga
Well-Known Member
BRS did some testing with a fuge and cubes of mysis. Bigger better lights =more photosynthesis =more nutrient uptake . They were testing 0,0 on both . With no bio load besides the cheato over weeks and that's a lot of food . So really by adjusting the photo period you could "tune" the fuge to get the export your looking for. This is actually the model I am going with for the new system . In a perfect world you could either over power the fuge and get near zero nutrients then dial it back to maintain the levels your looking for . Or dose to raise levels . I think you could keep pretty stable levels this way .
The first principle was stated above, though not in the same terms.
As mentioned, it also matters that nutrients dispersed in the water column are in a form we can measure (meaning inorganic salts, for our hobbyist test kits). Dispersed organic forms exist also, but generally do not show up when we test.
The rest, I take it, is a reference to Liebeg's law of the minimum?
"It states that growth is dictated not by total resources available, but by the scarcest resource (limiting factor)."
Liebig's law of the minimum - Wikipedia
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The rest, I take it, is a reference to Liebeg's law of the minimum?
"It states that growth is dictated not by total resources available, but by the scarcest resource (limiting factor)."
Liebig's law of the minimum - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Not exactly, as I hadn’t looked into Liebeg’s Law before specifically. Usually, depending on the context, we more often hear them referred to as Monod Kinetics or Michaelis-Menten. But yes. We follow these fundamentals in our research.
If we take systemic mass balance reasoning at face value, we might be tempted to conclude that the corals reach a steady state, settle in and that's it..
While the systemic kinetics are valid, the biology indicates that there is more going on 'under the hood' so to speak and may have been overlooked.
Many of us, including formal researchers, have encountered situations where an aquarium system in steady state seemed to be fine. Then corals specifically began to change. Often suddenly, for the worse & often without logical explanation.
That bacteria exist in formal relationships with corals and to their mutual benefit, is established-
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
While the systemic kinetics are valid, the biology indicates that there is more going on 'under the hood' so to speak and may have been overlooked.
Many of us, including formal researchers, have encountered situations where an aquarium system in steady state seemed to be fine. Then corals specifically began to change. Often suddenly, for the worse & often without logical explanation.
That bacteria exist in formal relationships with corals and to their mutual benefit, is established-
Beneficial Microorganisms for Corals (BMC): Proposed Mechanisms for Coral Health and Resilience
The symbiotic association between the coral animal and its endosymbiotic dinoflagellate partner Symbiodinium is central to the success of corals. However, an array of other microorganisms associated with coral (i.e., Bacteria, Archaea, Fungi, and viruses) ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Most of us have historically assumed that we provided sufficient nutrients & trace elements via water changes, dosing, air exchange & feeding. We usually pay little attention to the balance of such inputs, nor do we have convenient ways to quantify most of them.
Remembering that our aquariums are closed systems, it is conceivable that we unintentionally cause shifts in the balance of trace elements, via the above.
Example, of one such scenario: as corals and other organisms grow, some inevitably grow faster than others. Such changes naturally causes shifts in nutrient & elemental balance among species.
New research has shown that such shifts result in changes in the activity and diversity of bacteria. The above paper also illustrates that allelopathic as well as nutritional factors are involved. Allelopathic interaction in marine ecosystems is a powerful yet poorly understood phenomenon.
Some studies have shown that even pathogenic bacteria begin to dominate, in certain scenarios.
www.researchgate.net
Remembering that our aquariums are closed systems, it is conceivable that we unintentionally cause shifts in the balance of trace elements, via the above.
Example, of one such scenario: as corals and other organisms grow, some inevitably grow faster than others. Such changes naturally causes shifts in nutrient & elemental balance among species.
New research has shown that such shifts result in changes in the activity and diversity of bacteria. The above paper also illustrates that allelopathic as well as nutritional factors are involved. Allelopathic interaction in marine ecosystems is a powerful yet poorly understood phenomenon.
Some studies have shown that even pathogenic bacteria begin to dominate, in certain scenarios.
(PDF) Specific Effect of Trace Metals on Marine Heterotrophic Microbial Activity and Diversity: Key Role of Iron and Zinc and Hydrocarbon-Degrading Bacteria
PDF | Marine microbes are an important control on the biogeochemical cycling of trace metals, but simultaneously, these metals can control the growth of... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate
www.researchgate.net
Most of us have historically assumed that we provided sufficient nutrients & trace elements via water changes, dosing, air exchange & feeding. We usually pay little attention to the balance of such inputs, nor do we have convenient ways to quantify most of them.
Remembering that our aquariums are closed systems, it is conceivable that we unintentionally cause shifts in the balance of trace elements, via the above.
Example, of one such scenario: as corals and other organisms grow, some inevitably grow faster than others. Such changes naturally causes shifts in nutrient & elemental balance among species.
New research has shown that such shifts result in changes in the activity and diversity of bacteria. The above paper also illustrates that allelopathic as well as nutritional factors are involved. Allelopathic interaction in marine ecosystems is a powerful yet poorly understood phenomenon.
Some studies have shown that even pathogenic bacteria begin to dominate, in certain scenarios.
(PDF) Specific Effect of Trace Metals on Marine Heterotrophic Microbial Activity and Diversity: Key Role of Iron and Zinc and Hydrocarbon-Degrading Bacteria
PDF | Marine microbes are an important control on the biogeochemical cycling of trace metals, but simultaneously, these metals can control the growth of... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate
Exactly. (But this may be digressing from the topic a little, and getting deep may also risk alienating readers). Our systems are constantly changing, and each change is incremental.
Keeping it practical for reefers, and on the topic of managing macro-nutrients in the water column, it’s good to likewise make similar incremental changes to your reef over time. And is why I don’t support making multiple dramatic changes simultaneously with the expectation that it will achieve a healthy steady-state aquarium quickly.
Summary from the above paper states-
"The trace metals causing the strongest shifts to heterotrophic prokaryotic genera were Cu, Mn, Zn, Fe, and the Mix treatment, suggesting
those as key trace metals affecting heterotrophic prokaryotic community composition. The most susceptible genera to trace metals were hydrocarbon-degrading bacteria in the deep-water experiments, and uncultured bacteria in the surface water experiments. Interestingly, the most beneficiated and presumably best competitor taxa in all the experiments were hydrocarbon- degrading bacteria (particularly in surface waters where the strongest metal limitations are expected), revealing a potential predominant role of these type of bacteria in the cycling of metals and its associated cycling of organic matter in the ocean."
Which brings us to the core of the reason many have turned to ICP testing for our aquariums. It is logical to conclude that if we recognize the need for and truly want stability for our reefs and corals in particular, we need to recognize several things-
1-accurate measurements of the available trace levels is important (if not essential), in order to maintain their balance
2-addressing the needs of the organisms at the base of the food chain, bacteria in particular, is important for long term success.
3-there appear to be preferred clades of bacteria for specific corals, depending on the resulting state of condition desired (ie- color, heat tolerance, competitive/allelopathic properties, etc.)
www.icp-analysis.com
"The trace metals causing the strongest shifts to heterotrophic prokaryotic genera were Cu, Mn, Zn, Fe, and the Mix treatment, suggesting
those as key trace metals affecting heterotrophic prokaryotic community composition. The most susceptible genera to trace metals were hydrocarbon-degrading bacteria in the deep-water experiments, and uncultured bacteria in the surface water experiments. Interestingly, the most beneficiated and presumably best competitor taxa in all the experiments were hydrocarbon- degrading bacteria (particularly in surface waters where the strongest metal limitations are expected), revealing a potential predominant role of these type of bacteria in the cycling of metals and its associated cycling of organic matter in the ocean."
Which brings us to the core of the reason many have turned to ICP testing for our aquariums. It is logical to conclude that if we recognize the need for and truly want stability for our reefs and corals in particular, we need to recognize several things-
1-accurate measurements of the available trace levels is important (if not essential), in order to maintain their balance
2-addressing the needs of the organisms at the base of the food chain, bacteria in particular, is important for long term success.
3-there appear to be preferred clades of bacteria for specific corals, depending on the resulting state of condition desired (ie- color, heat tolerance, competitive/allelopathic properties, etc.)
About ICP Analysis for Saltwater Aquariums
So, why should you do ICP-Mass Spec analysis? What will it do for you and your corals? How it Works ICP-Mass Spec is not the most commonly used method in the aquarium world. The instrument we use is usually used to do testing to comply with the EPA regulations in environmental issues, so its...
www.icp-analysis.com
It speaks to the very heart of the issue, imho.
My premise: If we are focusing on growing the right bacteria, the coral will do great!
Kind of like the idea behind organic farming, but on a more formalized level.
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