Semi-urgent question... sick clown
- Thread starter cr500_af
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A little update:
The clowns show a few more specks today; I put them in the QT where it's a little more peaceful and I can keep a better eye on what they're eating. Not going to medicate yet, but I'm ready if I need to. Picked up some Rod's food today, we'll see if that goes over well.
The clowns show a few more specks today; I put them in the QT where it's a little more peaceful and I can keep a better eye on what they're eating. Not going to medicate yet, but I'm ready if I need to. Picked up some Rod's food today, we'll see if that goes over well.
Update 2: Non-eating clown did not make it. Signs of ich totally disappeared on their own (no meds) from both fish in one day, though, so I thought we were on the recovery road. Tried to reduce stress as much as possible (lights out, good hiding places in the QT, and a very quiet PH), fed different stuff and nothing helped. I'm going to keep the other one in the QT a bit longer, since it doesn't eat well (though it does eat, and that's more than I could say for the other one). Since both clowns seem to have issues (one not as bad as the other), I don't know what to blame it on but I'm blaming myself a lot less. I did a PWC in the main tank as a precaution, and tested water before the change so I could rule that out. Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 5, PH 8.0, SG 1.026. Temp stays constant @ 79-79.5 F.
One thing that's been bugging me... when I brought these fish home, I took the LFS' advice on acclimating them and did a basic "float the bag for 30 min" and then let them go. The owner (I won't name the store publicly) said "I don't drip anything".
I've never read about touchy acclimation procedures with clowns, but is an acclimation problem even a remote possibility? If there HAD been a problem, would it have taken over a week to end up at this point? I assumed that a problem of that nature would have a more immediate effect, and that a fish that made it a week after the initial problem would be "out of the woods". Am I mistaken here?
Thank you all for your input on this.
I really didn't suspect anything to do with my tank in the first place, as my Bangaii is doing great and my hermits/snails/peppermint shrimp are thriving.
I'm bummed out of course, and now I have to try to explain what happened to my 4 year old daughter. That should be fun.
One thing that's been bugging me... when I brought these fish home, I took the LFS' advice on acclimating them and did a basic "float the bag for 30 min" and then let them go. The owner (I won't name the store publicly) said "I don't drip anything".
I've never read about touchy acclimation procedures with clowns, but is an acclimation problem even a remote possibility? If there HAD been a problem, would it have taken over a week to end up at this point? I assumed that a problem of that nature would have a more immediate effect, and that a fish that made it a week after the initial problem would be "out of the woods". Am I mistaken here?
Thank you all for your input on this.
I really didn't suspect anything to do with my tank in the first place, as my Bangaii is doing great and my hermits/snails/peppermint shrimp are thriving.
I'm bummed out of course, and now I have to try to explain what happened to my 4 year old daughter. That should be fun.
Sorry about your loss. :sad: I would suggest keeping your fish under QT for at least a couple weeks until your sure all is well. QT is the best thing for any new fish as if they do have anything wrong, you'll be able to spot it and treat it prior to letting them into your public environment. Also I would soak all food in garlic from this point going forward just as a preventative. Garlic is good for the immune system.
As for acclimation, I always do a drip. Usually for fish somewhere between 45 and 60 minutes. Just something I am accustomed to.
I am sorry though and it's never easy explaining a loss to a 4 year old about her little fish friend. Good luck.
As for acclimation, I always do a drip. Usually for fish somewhere between 45 and 60 minutes. Just something I am accustomed to.
I am sorry though and it's never easy explaining a loss to a 4 year old about her little fish friend. Good luck.
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Acclimation could be of issue, if the LFS keeps there salinity low (some stores are at 1.012-1.017) and you being at 1.026. Also it is best for you to learn proper husbandry techniques like drip acclimating and quarintine. If you get another fish from them try matching the salinity of there water in your QT and over the next few weeks slowly allow your SG to raise to match your display. Better yet find a store that keeps there salinity above 1.021.
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Thanks all. I know those techniques, I just trusted someone's advice about whether or not I should drip acclimate these guys. I'll do it from now on just in case. I'm keeping the QT up for a while (at least) for observation.
Fish Scales2, the salinity is something I'll check closer next time I introduce a fish. I know mine, but I don't know the LFS's.
I have almost the exact QT you described, Barbara. A cheap glass 10g with a heater, some PVC fittings and a PH.
Fish Scales2, the salinity is something I'll check closer next time I introduce a fish. I know mine, but I don't know the LFS's.
I have almost the exact QT you described, Barbara. A cheap glass 10g with a heater, some PVC fittings and a PH.
It could have been Brooklynella.
A painfully slow drip is only necessary if your params are vastly different from the LFS (ie your salinity is MUCH higher).
I've seen people acclimate stuff right to death.
Acclimation, poor or otherwise does not cause a parasitic or protozoan infestation.
Jenn
A painfully slow drip is only necessary if your params are vastly different from the LFS (ie your salinity is MUCH higher).
I've seen people acclimate stuff right to death.
Acclimation, poor or otherwise does not cause a parasitic or protozoan infestation.
Jenn
Yeah, I was just examining possibilities since we really speculating as to whether there was an infestation or another issue. Would you mind elaborating... when you say "acclimate stuff to death", do you mean by taking too long in the process? What exactly can happen in this scenario?
Thanks.
I've seen folks take an eternity to acclimate stuff. If it has made a short trip from the LFS and the hobbyist's parameters are fairly close to that of the LFS, 20-40 minutes is more than enough. Being careful isn't a bad thing...
It's when a creature has been shipped (ie bought online or transshipped etc.) and that creature has been in the bag 20+ hours... lots of chemical reactions happen in the bag. O2 depletes, ammonia forms from waste... pH drops. Low pH works to help keep the ammonia from becoming toxic... but once you open the bag, and new 02 hits that water, pH rises quickly, ammonia becomes very toxic and leaving a creature in that for an hours-long acclimation does more harm than good.
IMO it's less of a stressor to move that creature more quickly from bag water to good aquarium water, than it would be to slow drip etc. Better to move them more quickly into good water than have them sit in their own filth, suffering ammonia burns to the gills which can lead to death, or burns that can become infected later on - which can also cause death.
Exceptions being sea stars and urchins - they are very sensitive to changes in pH and specific gravity so they do need some time to acclimate and a reasonable slow drip is in order - regardless of transit time - but the longer in the bag, the more potential for problems. Of course, they excrete less and respire less so they don't typically foul bag water as quickly. Comes down to using common sense.
As far as the illness in the original post, I'd be considering Brooklynella. I haven't seen it in my own stock as of late (knock on wood) but I have been called in to consult twice lately and have found it to be Brooklynella twice in the last week.
Jenn
It's when a creature has been shipped (ie bought online or transshipped etc.) and that creature has been in the bag 20+ hours... lots of chemical reactions happen in the bag. O2 depletes, ammonia forms from waste... pH drops. Low pH works to help keep the ammonia from becoming toxic... but once you open the bag, and new 02 hits that water, pH rises quickly, ammonia becomes very toxic and leaving a creature in that for an hours-long acclimation does more harm than good.
IMO it's less of a stressor to move that creature more quickly from bag water to good aquarium water, than it would be to slow drip etc. Better to move them more quickly into good water than have them sit in their own filth, suffering ammonia burns to the gills which can lead to death, or burns that can become infected later on - which can also cause death.
Exceptions being sea stars and urchins - they are very sensitive to changes in pH and specific gravity so they do need some time to acclimate and a reasonable slow drip is in order - regardless of transit time - but the longer in the bag, the more potential for problems. Of course, they excrete less and respire less so they don't typically foul bag water as quickly. Comes down to using common sense.
As far as the illness in the original post, I'd be considering Brooklynella. I haven't seen it in my own stock as of late (knock on wood) but I have been called in to consult twice lately and have found it to be Brooklynella twice in the last week.
Jenn
Thanks Jenn. I don't know much about Brooklynella (almost nothing, in fact) but I'm going to read up on it.
The clown acted normal (other than the non-eating) for a week at least. The appearance of the apparent ich got me paying closer attention to that particular fish, and those white specks on the fins only stayed for two days... but I went ahead and isolated him once I saw how skinny he had become. I didn't know it at the time, but if I had realized when his clock was gonna run out, I'd have medicated him as a last-ditch effort in case he had a parasite problem or something. As it was, though, I was trying to save him the stress of harsh medications, because outwardly it seemed like he was eating a little </em>better each time. I think it was all in my head, kind of seeing what I wanted to see.
The clown acted normal (other than the non-eating) for a week at least. The appearance of the apparent ich got me paying closer attention to that particular fish, and those white specks on the fins only stayed for two days... but I went ahead and isolated him once I saw how skinny he had become. I didn't know it at the time, but if I had realized when his clock was gonna run out, I'd have medicated him as a last-ditch effort in case he had a parasite problem or something. As it was, though, I was trying to save him the stress of harsh medications, because outwardly it seemed like he was eating a little </em>better each time. I think it was all in my head, kind of seeing what I wanted to see.
Sometimes even meds won't work too - so like Barbara said - don't beat yourself up over it.
On the fins - could have been ich. Brook presents itself in many ways, from a whiteish film to sloughing skin and what looks like blisters. Some fish can live with it for weeks - and it may clear up on its own or with meds, and others can be dead within a few hours. It has many "faces".
Clowns don't get ich very often - but they can. Their slime coat is somewhat different from most other fishes, so ich doesn't "like" them as much - but Brooklynella is not confined to clownfishes but they are the most prone to it.
Heck - could have been both.... once a fish is stressed it's susceptible to all kinds of stuff.
Survival depends a lot on the fish and its will to live. Some fish occasionally just fail to thrive.
Jenn
On the fins - could have been ich. Brook presents itself in many ways, from a whiteish film to sloughing skin and what looks like blisters. Some fish can live with it for weeks - and it may clear up on its own or with meds, and others can be dead within a few hours. It has many "faces".
Clowns don't get ich very often - but they can. Their slime coat is somewhat different from most other fishes, so ich doesn't "like" them as much - but Brooklynella is not confined to clownfishes but they are the most prone to it.
Heck - could have been both.... once a fish is stressed it's susceptible to all kinds of stuff.
Survival depends a lot on the fish and its will to live. Some fish occasionally just fail to thrive.
Jenn
Thanks for the input, Jenn. Once I am positive that everything in my tank is stable I'll be replacing this clown, and I'll take the extra step of asking the store I'll use (a sponsor for sure) what their SG is so I can have my QT pretty close before it goes in.
Go one better - do ask.. and ask to see the fish eat in the store. Take a close look at all inhabitants of the system (not just the tank - many/most stores use central systems where all tanks are plumbed together - or groups of tanks plumbed together).
Also ask when the fish arrived. We date everything when it arrived so you can know how long it's been there.
If other fish in the tank or system look puny, think twice.
Ask the SG, and test it yourself in the bag water. Test pH too.
Simple things that can help avoid problems and only take a minute to do for yourself
Jenn
Also ask when the fish arrived. We date everything when it arrived so you can know how long it's been there.
If other fish in the tank or system look puny, think twice.
Ask the SG, and test it yourself in the bag water. Test pH too.
Simple things that can help avoid problems and only take a minute to do for yourself
Jenn
