Should I downgrade from 140g?

[danh]

In the last 18 months I've gone from a 93g to a temp 55g and now to a 140g cube. I like the cube. The setup seems to be decent.... but after having the calcium issue (600+ for a week or so) resulting from a bad Red Sea test (that they replaced) I've had continual issues. I've been testing Ca and alk 2-3 times per day sometimes, adjusting my kalk dose in my ATO and making small adjustments with BRS 2 part.



Everything is testing good but my SPS and some of the LPS just keep deteriorating, I guess STN. The situation even killed xenia and started killing an acan. I've got about 20 heads of candy cane that I've put in afterwards that's started with some STN from the base up. The SPS that is left is browning. Hard to tell if it's still deteriorating or it's just slowed.

Fish stocking is fairly low for a 140g. 2 spot. clowns, regal tang, sailfin tang, starry blenny, porcupine puffter and 2 banded shrimp, sally light foot and only a handful of snails and hermits. As you can see from the video I'd say that I'm LIGHTLY stocked with corals. I'm using Red Sea Coral Pro salt. Also, around the same time as the Ca issue, I had red bugs and treated with interceptor. Following about 24 hours of treatment I did 20g of water change and added two different types of BRS carbon.

That gets me to water changes. That 20g water change is the only water change that I've done since June. My Red Sea NO3 test expired last month and doesn't look to be testing correctly. I tried it the other day. Normal concentration was a dark pink but a completely different shade than the test shows. The diluted concentration showed zero. That follows the last test I had Premier do <5ppm. My PO4 seems ok .06 which is about what Premier said a few months ago. I've got a Nyos skimmer that works well, a big block of Marine Pure and a DIY algae scrubber that now has 65 watts of horticulture LEDs on it.

When I first started the 140g ALL of the coral POPPED... after having been in a temp 55g for 6 months or so. Excellent polyp extension and color.

My 5g at work that's almost 2 years is growing everything well. I've recently transitioned it to mostly SPS because of the SPS that was in it had grown so well. Also so I can save some of all my existing coral in case they don't make it in the 140g. I rarely test that tank, top of is irregular so salinity can fluctuate. I use only kalk and when I have tested, alk is fairly low. I do 1-2g of water changes 1-2 times a week. Which is a lot. Yes, good old fashion water changes. They are EASY in a 5g. I just can't do that in my 140g with the space and set up that I have.



So the question ---- Should I keep the 140g as a predator tank (that I'd like as well) and then set up a <40g reef? Or should I be able to get the 140g back in check? It's hard for me to think that the low stock of corals have depleted the trace elements so much that it's causing these issues so other than just taking some time to really recover from the Ca issue. Getting the 140g back in check means managing the tank with kalk, 2 part and some other method of trace elements and infrequent water changes. Maybe not quite up to using Triton, but at least the idea.



A few weeks ago - spot clowns are laying eggs, so that makes me feel like NO3 and PO4 can't be too bad - as my tests indicate.

July

 

[Adam]

I think the answer is staring you right in the face. One tank is getting 20% to 80% water changes weekly, which is a lot but maybe no bad for such a small tank, were the other is getting none. In the cube you're basically doing a version of the Triton Method without the dosing of trace elements that goes with it. It's probably depleted the water column of all the good trace elements and there could be a buildup of some of the bad. You're doing a crap ton of testing to get the big 3 in order but ignoring the rest.

Have you thought about sending off for a Triton or ATI ICP test just to see where you're at?

I've cut way back on my water changes and am down to about 20% every 6 weeks or so. But I'm also dosing a Strontium/Molybdenum mix, Potassium, Iodide and Iron. I also feed amino's, add Vitachem & Selcon and Vitamin C among other things. If you're dead set against doing water changes at all on the cube then maybe going to the full Triton Method is for you. The trade off for the hauling of water is the cash it takes to do the Method. Either way any system needs to be replenished sooner or later no matter how big or small it is and you're seeing those results with the differences in the two systems. Oh, and to fully start the Triton Method there are some serious water changes at the beginning, we're talking a whole lot of 5 gallon jugs, but once done with that it's pretty free sailing on that front. Check with @Urbanknight he's doing Triton.

 

[danh]

I know the water changes are the big difference. I still feel like it's next to impossible for the few corals in my 140g to have depleted too much of the trace in just a few months. Maybe in 30g of water, but not 140g. I guess I should get a Triton test done and that would tell me if it's the lack of trace that's causing my issues. If so I know... if I can't manage the at least 10% water changes weekly or bi-weekly in the 140g and I don't want to pay for Triton chemicals, then <40g reef it is, huh?

 

[Adam]

You may not think things are that depleted but something is wrong with the system. If you're NO3 & PO4 are really where you say they're at then you're feeding enough even with a mid level bio-load. That leaves trace elements and other nutrients like amino's and vitamins that aren't being replaced by feeding alone. You also have to remember that the ATS isn't just pulling NO3 & PO4 to grow...

There are no real short cuts that work in this hobby. In the end it's how much cash you spend. For reef tanks it's saltmix, RODI filters and the cost of water on one end (along with your back) or the costs of the supplements the further you go away from doing changes. I'm not sure witch way is more cost effective but I do know the bigger the tank the higher the costs, your budget dictates the rest. My setup was designed to be easy on my back. Even though I'm doing fewer water changes there's sill a cost to the supplements but it's not crazy expensive. In your case it sounds like it's more the location of the tank itself that doesn't lend itself to water changes.

It the mean time I'd try to do something with the water to improve the situation and also send off a test to see where things are really at. You can't just go by stuff and dose with out knowing how much you need to add and a way of verifying the end levels. The Red Sea program is the only other one you can do to add trace somewhat blindly, even it recommends 10% weekly water changes. And in addition to the salt it costs over $100 for the Coral Package to get started. But all you need to do to see the results of that program is to look at Rit's system to the right when you walk in the door of Atlanta Aquarium. He's been doing that program exclusively on that tank for close to a year now.

If you can't find a way to make changing the water easier where it is you've got three choices. 1) Move the tank to a more suitable place in the house for at least some water changes while adding supplements. 2) Go FOWLR and maybe some softies. 3) Downsize the tank to a more manageable level. That choice is up to you. Only you know what you're willing to spend and how much work you're willing to put into the husbandry of the system.

 

[danh]

Right... so considering I don't really want to do the water changes or pay for Triton chemicals... I guess the answer is turn the 140 in to a pred tank and get a <40g reef...

 

[Adam]

Again, it's you call. Just remember the 40 will need water changes and/or supplements too. So you need to put it, or any other sized tank you choose, in a place that will make those changes easier.

I have a new 40B I'm not using BTW. $40 and it's yours

*Edit* Oh... and the 55 I have could be a good sump for it depending on the stand you used. $50

 

[danh]

I can manage moving 5-10g of water changes per week which I would think might be ok for <40g.



40b won't do it for me. I'd definitely want rimless.

 

[danh]

I remembered my small bottle of Seachem Marine Trace that I won at the October meeting. The bottle said a capfull per 20g of water. I went ahead and added 10 cap fulls. I've been doing two per day. After a week the candy canes were back. 10-12 days the stylos were back. I was impressed so I got a bottle of Reef Trace as well and did the same thing. The bottles are about $12 and should last 2 months or so. I'm going to keep this up for a while and see how it does. They are both missing strontium though. Seachem offers that separately.

 

[danh]

3 weeks after I started the Marine Trace and 1.5 weeks after the Reef Trace and the 140g looks GREAT. I'm seeing growth that I've never experienced before. Polyp extension is crazy. There's a piece of stag that I got from Brandon that has better color than the day I brought it home. SPS that I thought was nearly completely dead have polyps popping up all over them. A spongodes I got from another member was nearly dead and now growing like crazy. A chalice that hadn't shown any growth for a month or so before this issue and has growth in just these 3 weeks.



Someone should really tell that Seachem rep that left the Halloween even early that the bottle of Marine Trace has me buying more!



Now.....

I had moved a lot of my sps to my 5g because it has always done so well. Shortly after that I left one of the lights on all weekend and thought that may have been what was causing prolonged poor polyp extension. Since then the digi seems to be extended well as are the zoas. Everything else, though, candy canes, and other sps aren't extended well. The torch and stylo are probably the most significant. Most of the sps shows some growth, just poor extension. I'm thinking that it's just overloaded. I had been doing one to two 25%+ water changes a week. I top off with kalk. Ca and alk are normally a little low but not bad. I think, though, that there's just too much coral for water changes and kalk to handle. I started using the Marine Trace on Monday. I'll be interested to see what happens.

 

[danh]

posting some pics.  I'll comment tomrrow. 

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[danh]

So still not water changes. I'm dosing Seachem Reef Trace, Strontium and Fuel, of course along with kalk in my ATO, extra two part Alk almost daily and Ca and Mg every two weeks or so. I had quite a bit of death from the lack of trace before I started doing the right thing. I guess I learned a lot at least. Everything is now growing well. The I can see growth in most of the SPS daily. Everything has better color than I've seen in a while. I've got quite a bit of coraline in a few different colors. It's not covering everything because I don't have complete light coverage yet. Other than losing some fish during the power outage and a new fish with ich, fish are now doing really well. ATS is still pumping and apparently doing its job. My NO3 and PO4 tests are expired, so I don't know what they are but based on the coral, I'd assume pretty low.

 

[snowmansnow]

keep an eye on that NO3 level. If it starts maintaining at a detectable 0 your sps tissue will start fading. The polyps will retain color a while. If that happens try and find that sweet spot. For me it is around 2-4 parts... or at least it has been in the past.

 

[danh]

I'm not eyeing it at all. Even with my ATS, I'm not sure how I could get to that. I remember you saying without any export like an ATS or fuge, you had zero. I guess without having seen it happen with you, I would never have thought about that. Now that I've figured out what my issue was before and have solved for it, if it I start having issues again, PO4 and NO3 will be my next suspect. Thanks.

 

[Adam]

I still look at my no3 and po4 every 4 to 5 weeks. I shoot for 3-6 and .003-.006. As a matter of fact my no3 test expires in March and I got a new set of red sea pro reagents in the mail yesterday.

The goal for me is to know where things are headed so I can react before there's a problem.

 

[danh]

Yeah, I know. I need make an order. I need a back up return pump, more reef trace, fuel, magnesium, mg test and no3 po4 tests.....

 

[Adam]

Like I said it's my goal but it's still been problematic. I got lazy late summer into fall and my organics climbed. Now I make it a point even if I'm being lazy to at least test the big 3 every 7-10 days and organics, at a min, once a month. But I've been doing it more often lately. The problem is what takes a short time to screw up sometimes takes 10 times as long to fix in this hobby. Better to stay in front of it than create more headaches for yourself. Many of the people in this hobby can just look at their DT and know what's going on. That came with years of going through the various issues we have had and the knowledge gained from it. I don't think you and I are quite there yet. My problem is I've never had undetectable nutrients and for the most part my coral usually always looks great, especially sps. Cyano has been my biggest enemy.

Was the Waveline I have too much for you? It's a solid pump and could probably be your primary.

 

[danh]

Zoom traded me the new Jebao DCP model for the nem. I do still need another one whether it's to be the backup or new primary. I'm still considering but probably have to wait a few weeks.

 

[danh]

3 months later.... Still dosing Fuel and Reef Trace. Coraline is going crazy. I'm topping off with fully saturated kalk and especially right now, with no AC or heat running in the house, I'm adding a lot of 2 part as well. I've got at least 3 colors of coraline including a really nice pink. Since last June, 10+ months, I can't remember exactly how much water change I've done. I know at least 20g... I might have done another 30g. So less than 50g of water changes in almost a year.

That's including two power outages of over 24 hours each. One was almost 3 days I think. And it included a decent sized anemone walking in to a power head.

The SPS is growing like crazy. One piece that I thought was almost complete dead is now almost as big as it ever was. The stag is probably 5x the size it ever was.  I'm definitely keeping this up.

Loading up some pics now.

 

[danh]

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[danh]

Compare these two pics. 3 months of growth. Color is the same as it used to be.

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