Sps coloration under LED

[reefkeeper]

grouper therapy;1047033 wrote: How is the par different on LEDs? Higher? I ran 3 400 watt metal halides over driven 14" from the water with a very nice reflector on a 5 foot tank and never experienced bleaching from the light. Help me out.

Dave, with MH reflectors the light is disbursed with a wider spread and obviously different MH fixture disburse differently. With LEDS lower range optics with give you direct beam of light to help penetrate deeper tank depths. If he's running a shallow tank and he has 90 or even lower degree optics, chances are the par at the sand is going be extremely high and also higher areas will even be higher.

I found that the lower optics beam extremely strong through water. My Lumenbright mini running 250 watt radium when lowered on the tank did the same thing on my 24 inch depth and I had to higher the fixture to lower the par at the sand bed.

Running his lights with higher LED intensity could or is causing his corals to burn up. I've seen it in my tanks and I read about people doing it with there tanks as well on other forums.

 

[picoreefguy]

grouper therapy;1047033 wrote: How is the par different on LEDs? Higher? I ran 3 400 watt metal halides over driven 14" from the water with a very nice reflector on a 5 foot tank and never experienced bleaching from the light. Help me out.

i think there is a difference in par and that the reason led's seem to bleach some corals easier is because the light is more harsh. and by that i mean with a metal halide or t5 bulb you get light in a wide range of wavelengths from one bulb and with leds you get light of a much narrower range of wavelengths so when you see par from halides or t5's its a mix of spectrums and when you get the same par reading from an led fixture its a few different wavelengths that are all amped up to get the same par number so thats why some corals bleach under leds because their zooxanthellae are getting bombarded by one or two wavelengths. and keep in mind i said i think so this is just my opinion. also this is why you can get away with only running some led fixtures at 20% or less because they provide the right wavelengths of light and the zooxanthellae can survive and thrive on it. again just imo.

 

[reefkeeper]

I found this link in my favorite folder:

 

[reeferman]

just as Dave said,the light is much more focused,like a spotlight.i only run 90 degree optics on 30 of my 120 total leds[the rest have no optics].an led diode with no optics will still give you a 120 degree spread.
i believe you have and had the intensity way too high from the start and you bleached them.thats a very common problem with first time led users.they are a lot brighter than they appear.
let them get used to the lights and slowly[over months]get used to the lights and gradually raise the intensity.
it still bugs me that people think other lights are superior even though there are countless users on other forums with very successful led lit tanks using all types of fixtures from high end to cheap chinese black boxes.its about finding the sweet spot,keeping params stable and letting the corals get used to the light source.
we are all guilty of wanting instant gratification but some things just take time.im sure lots of you are saying"why not just throw mh or t5s and be done" and thats fine if you want greater electricity costs from lighting,fans,chillers and such and bulb replacements or just stick it out and enjoy the luxuries of leds.
my tank and tons of others are proof that they work and ill put my color AND growth against ANYONE

 

[glxtrix]

Definitely way too high. As the article states, the light is directed into your tank more, than spilled all over like MH or T5. The downside to that is the light spill! When I put my Kessil on my tank, I turned them way up to "look" like there was enough light...my corals were not happy! I almost bleached all my corals. I found putting my lights on 35-45% total output on mine, but dialed more towards a blue spectrum, my corals were very happy. After about a year, I JUST turned my Kessils up to 45-50% intensity. I dont think I needed to wait that long, but the corals are starting to look really good, so I want to add some more light and see what happens. Drop the intensity and go more of a blue spectrum and let corals get use to the adjustments and see how it goes.

 

[grouper therapy]

reeferman;1047048 wrote: just as Dave said,the light is much more focused,like a spotlight.i only run 90 degree optics on 30 of my 120 total leds[the rest have no optics].an led diode with no optics will still give you a 120 degree spread.
i believe you have and had the intensity way too high from the start and you bleached them.thats a very common problem with first time led users.they are a lot brighter than they appear.
let them get used to the lights and slowly[over months]get used to the lights and gradually raise the intensity.
it still bugs me that people think other lights are superior even though there are countless users on other forums with very successful led lit tanks using all types of fixtures from high end to cheap chinese black boxes.its about finding the sweet spot,keeping params stable and letting the corals get used to the light source.
we are all guilty of wanting instant gratification but some things just take time.im sure lots of you are saying"why not just throw mh or t5s and be done" and thats fine if you want greater electricity costs from lighting,fans,chillers and such and bulb replacements or just stick it out and enjoy the luxuries of leds.
my tank and tons of others are proof that they work and ill put my color AND growth against ANYONE

I really don't think that other light sources are superior but I do think they are just as good as leds with out finding the" sweet spot". How many $50 frags does one go through before the sweet spotis found? As for the cost difference, I'm not a believer yet. I've never seen any pro led users figure in the cost of finding the sweet spot. And then there is the whole longevity claim. I've already seen in other led applications where the manufacturers have reduced the life expectancy from 50,000 hrs to 30,000 hrs. What is next? It seems to be purely speculation at this point. So the statement that they are absolutely cheaper to run is deemed speculation. No?
Sorry for the hijack.

 

[grouper therapy]

Fwiw I really want to be a led fan.

 

[glxtrix]

grouper therapy;1047061 wrote: Fwiw I really want to be a led fan.

It took me a bit to like LEDs. I've had every type of light...old school VHO, MH, T5 and now LED. While I can say they may not be for every tank, or every person....they sure are pretty cool! I think it's easier and more cost effective if you have a smaller tank. I have 2 Kessils on my 60g, and honestly 1 would probably do....but I like to go over kill in my lights. As much as I like what MH and T5 have done for my tanks in the past, I'm really starting to see the effects on my tank NOW and I really like what I'm seeing! I've bleached my fair share of corals in the past from my crazy light setups....I have yet to really kill one since the LED switch. I've bleached a lot, yes....but they are all still alive and very well now. With any new light setup, MH and T5 as well....if you get a different system, it's going to be different than what you are use to...adjustments will be made until your happy and you'll know the places to add new coral for light acclimation. I think LEDs are the same...just, a little different...if that makes any sense. Again, to each their own on whatever light setup is for you...I know plenty of people who have tried them and switched back ( I almost did) but like those people who stuck with them, I'm happy

 

[snowmansnow]

Grouper I'm not sure. I've wondered the same thing. I have heard the point that most par meters don't measure them correctly, especially having trouble w the blues.
I really don't know if that's true, but that's what I've heard.

The issue I'm having is clearly related to too much light , whether it's due to par or whatever. That frag is horizontal in the tank. The top has pe but the tissue is washed out. Underneath it looks like it should...

I know there are a lot of variables to consider, but lighting is the only variable that could affect exactly half of that coral ( or at least the only thing I can think of).




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[iifeainteasy]

cment;1047007 wrote: honestly, ive found with LEDs that the lower the better to start off at. On a tank as shallow as your I would lower the intensity to 20% white 30% blue and go from there. i thought I had water quality issues bc of lack of PE and it happened to be my lights were just too much. i lowered the intensity and within a couple days PE had begun to come back.

i have chinese box leds. and i started all coral at the bottom. and gradually moved up. recovering from browing is easier than recovering from bleaching IMO. i run about 75% blues and 40-60% whites. and mornings and evenings past 6 just blues. and two 3 hours into the cycle i then turn on the whites.

 

[reeferman]

B,just lower the intensity and slowly bring it up,thats a very shallow tank so im sure the lights are penetrating.

i dont know that ill get 10 years out of mine but i do know im close to 5 years with them and they havent lost intensity yet[par readings].just factoring that in alone,ive come out cheaper.not to mention no chiller and cooler living room so a/c doesnt have to run near as much.my heater only really runs in the winter as my tank stays pretty steady in the 78-79 range constantly.
the only way i could have possibly saved money with mh or t5 is if i bought someones used setup and thats not me,i like to buy new lights so i know what theyve been through.a nice t5 fixture will cost 700 and a nice mh with good reflectors and ballasts would cost 500+ not mentioning bulb replacements for the last 5 years.
i didnt kill any frags finding the sweet spot with mine.as with every light,i started my frags down low and brought them up as i saw them responding.ive never just threw them in high and hoped for the best.

 

[reefkeeper]

SnowManSnow;1047079 wrote: Grouper I'm not sure. I've wondered the same thing. I have heard the point that most par meters don't measure them correctly, especially having trouble w the blues.
I really don't know if that's true, but that's what I've heard.

The issue I'm having is clearly related to too much light , whether it's due to par or whatever. That frag is horizontal in the tank. The top has pe but the tissue is washed out. Underneath it looks like it should...

I know there are a lot of variables to consider, but lighting is the only variable that could affect exactly half of that coral ( or at least the only thing I can think of).




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Brandon I think your confusing Par with spectrum. Par or Photosynthetic Active Radiation is nothing more than the measurement of light emission within the photosynthetic range of 400-700nm and yes a Par meter will read par correctly from LEDS.

Here’s my 2 cents….It's always something with LEDS, Spectrum, intensity, duration,blues, whites, yellows, reds, UV, spread, shading, single point diode, blending, wide angle, reflectors, and hot spots, we can go on and on and on. Some of the people who have had success like Reggie “Reeferman” have built there LEDS from scratch and spent a lot of time researching for the best settings etc.

We have the ebay folks who buy Chinese brand knock offs because there friend or a forum said man don’t buy those expensive LED fixtures you can do it cheaper with an ebay fixture and then you have folks that go buy $5K of top of the line LED fixtures because they read that Joe s fixtures is the greatest thing since slice bread and there proud of their results.

What do we have, the same results…..burnt corals hot spots, coloration issues high pitched noise from cheap Chinese components and the list goes on and on. Folks it shouldn’t be this complicated.
Think of the wasted money people have dished out buying and selling LEDS Fixtures and it’s clear it happens every day. Just go hit all the forums and you’ll see for yourself.

I have no doubt that at some point, LEDs will be the light source of the future, it’s just not a plug and play thing yet like T5’s and MH’s because of the intensity and spectrum issues and until it is, we will continue to have these conversations on this forum and every other forum.

 

[snowmansnow]

Reefkeeper. I'm a T5 guy. If I wanted a bullet proof lighting solution id buy an ATI power module today, but I'm giving the LED thing a fair shake.
I do think a LOT of the LED failures we read about are due to inexperienced reefers having far too little patience. I see a lot of "I've had this setting for a week and poor results so I'm moving things", and the corals never catch up. OR, maybe something is out of whack and the lights are just an easy target.
If, at the end of a year or so I'm still frustrated I'll sell my fixtures and go T5 I've only been around for a decade, so I have plenty to learn, but I don't mind giving a fair amount of time to the process. Heck I don't even mind building my own stuff if that's what it takes.

I may fail in the end (or maybe not), but I'm having a good time experimenting.

Right now my corals have been y see the LED lights for a while, and are GROWING, but like the op states the color is wonky.... And at that it's only half the corals haha.




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[reefkeeper]

Brandon I completely understand. I've gone to an ATI T5 dimmable fixture myself on my sps tank and still own and run several different LED fixtures on other tanks. I wish you the best and one day who knows, you could be like Reggie and glxtrix in successfully accomplishing the art of running LEDS on your sps tank. Good luck and again I wish you the best!!

 

[grouper therapy]

reeferman;1047095 wrote: B,just lower the intensity and slowly bring it up,thats a very shallow tank so im sure the lights are penetrating.

i dont know that ill get 10 years out of mine but i do know im close to 5 years with them and they havent lost intensity yet[par readings].just factoring that in alone,ive come out cheaper.not to mention no chiller and cooler living room so a/c doesnt have to run near as much.my heater only really runs in the winter as my tank stays pretty steady in the 78-79 range constantly.
the only way i could have possibly saved money with mh or t5 is if i bought someones used setup and thats not me,i like to buy new lights so i know what theyve been through.a nice t5 fixture will cost 700 and a nice mh with good reflectors and ballasts would cost 500+ not mentioning bulb replacements for the last 5 years.
i didnt kill any frags finding the sweet spot with mine.as with every light,i started my frags down low and brought them up as i saw them responding.ive never just threw them in high and hoped for the best.

Fair enough . I never ran a chiller on my tank but I spent as much time finding alternative methods of temp control as one would with tuning LEDs! Of course I ran my tank between 82- 84 as well. Have your drivers held up as well?

 

[reeferman]

Yeah,I've had absolutely zero issues at all with my fixtures.
I'm using meanwell drivers,premium bin 3 w Cree LEDs and 3" computer fans(not sure brand).i haven't even had a single whine out of the fans.all my build supplies came from Reefledlights.com
Granted,it was a crap ton of soldering on 120 diodes but I believe it was all worth it.

 

[camellia]

SnowManSnow;1046958 wrote: By my estimation this is a CLEAR indication that the lights are simply too intense. Half the coral is healthy looking the other half bleached as it sits horizontal in the tank.


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+1 start lower in the tank or reduce exposer...

 

[kzoo]

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All led it can be done

 

[snowmansnow]

Sure it can, but I wonder what the specs on that lighting rig are


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[kzoo]

This is my tank and im running 2 ,16in -165w -90deg optics and one 24 in 185w no optics. All Chinese black box led, same as reef breeders.