Tank overflow drainage through the floor: silence?

[wade]

All,
I need to run a drain and a return line from my basement into the display room directly above. I have hardwood floors, so I plan to cut a notch of one plank out so it can eventually be replaced if necessary. I'll then insulate the gap.

So my issue is NOISE. My wife despises hearing water flowing when sitting in the living room. And I get it as a silent tank is more impressive.

<span style="font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: Blue;">So has anyone ever adapted a drain line to fall through the floor and yet make no noise? </span></span>

Any suggestions? This outflow is coming from a Reef Savvy ghost overflow box on the outside of the tank.

I've been considering creating some form of modified Bean Animal (or even the old Stockman) type where the wider part of the system is actually down at floor level inside the stand before it vanishes through the floor itself. Just not sure it will work with the extra fall distance (and resulting potential suction).

I could possibly create a second sump that slows the water and then moves it again, but that seems unnecessary.

Thoughts?

 

[Adam]

A Bean animal is as silent as you're going to get. But you will need to have 3 drain lines running down through the floor.
The best way to run it is with the gate valve in an accessible spot and close enough to the DT to see what your adjustments are making in the overflow box.

 

[wade]

anit77;1103843 wrote: A Bean animal is as silent as you're going to get. But you will need to have 3 drain lines running down through the floor.
The best way to run it is with the gate valve in an accessible spot and close enough to the DT to see what your adjustments are making in the overflow box.

That was my thought too, but I'm concerned that the noise of the high suction through the drain lines will still be high if the valve is near the DT since it is around a 9' drop to the sump. I can certainly wrap the lines in something like pipe insulation to help to some small degree.

 

[Adam]

The only time it should make noise is when the line is purging air. What size pipe and how much flow are you looking for?

 

[wade]

anit77;1103847 wrote: The only time it should make noise is when the line is purging air. What size pipe and how much flow are you looking for?

Since it is a 90g DT, probably around 1200-1500 gph. I have a Vectra L1 so I can control the flow as needed.

 

[jennm]

The biggest issue is how far the water falls over the dam and into the overflow. That's where most of the noise comes from. A proper Durso or other standpipe modification should quiet the 'sucking' or 'flushing' sound. After that, most of the noise should be on the lower level where the sump is (basement?) If that isn't your living area, then it shouldn't make much if any noise topside - your pump will be down there (albeit a big pump, external is better for that application) and any splashing noise within the sump.

I remember a friend of mine, before the invention of the Durso, had this big elaborate zig-zag of PVC under the floor, near the basement ceiling... she called it The Gurgulator. It didn't work very well either

Jenn

 

[hfleming]

I have the same setup with a basement sump. I won't say mine is silent but I was able to get it a little more quiet by putting in another siphon break just below the floor (up high in the basement). The siphon break was nothing more than a tee in the drain line that turned up with a small extension open to air.

My theory was as the water tumbled down to the basement it ended up creating a siphon and tried to pull more air through the dursos. The extra siphon break in the basement allowed that air to be pulled in downstairs and not through the dursos.

In my installation in made a big difference and we easily watch TV beside the tank without issue.

Give me a little while and I'll post a picture.

 

[hfleming]

The pipe traveling down to the left is the drain. The short 1 foot pipe pointing straight up is the siphon break. It's open at the top.

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[wade]

hfleming;1103902 wrote: The pipe traveling down to the left is the drain. The short 1 foot pipe pointing straight up is the siphon break. It's open at the top.

Thanks for posting! I was thinking of something similar to this as well. Wasn't sure if this would interrupt the Bean style or if it would help. I was also wondering if putting the gate valve(s) just above the sump would matter vs at the back of the DT.

I'm willing to play around with it, although I am trying to plan it right from the outset.

 

[enderg60]

Ok 2 things. First, for silence you will want straight falls for vertical and slightly sloped for horizontal. If you still have noise(and I still had some) you can wrap pipes in 1" insulation. Same stuff you use for freeze protection or something similar. it will deaden the noise. Second 1 plank may not be large enough or in the right place. What I did was get a wooden floor vent and cut the hole that size so when I move I just drop the vent in as a dummy and off I go.

 

[Adam]

wade;1103848 wrote: Since it is a 90g DT, probably around 1200-1500 gph. I have a Vectra L1 so I can control the flow as needed.

1. 1200-1500gph is a lot of flow for a 90DT. With rock and sand, if you use sand, you're looking at around 75 gallons in the DT. At 1500gph you'll have 20 times turn over in there. That's quite a bit of flow through the sump unless it's a real big sump.
I have a 220 DT with about 185 to 190 gallons and a 90 sump with 60 gallons in it and my return is pushing about 1600 gph...

2. You're never going to get that amount of flow using a Vectra L1 with the head pressure you have. If it's 9' from the floor down to the sump and lets say 4' up to the tank you'll have 13' of head before you add any fittings. All said and done you're going to have 15-18' with fittings and you'll be lucky to get 500gph of flow to the tank.

With that said 5 times turn over is 375 gph. So it's not bad if you can get that 500 and you can get away with using 1" PVC. Just do whatever you can to keep the number of fittings on the return line to a minimum and if possible reduce the distance from the floor of the tank to the sump below. If you elevate the sump off the floor some you can reduce the amount of head you have.

Take a look at the Bean animal thread on Reef Central. It's a huge thread but if you search it with "basement" you'll probably find a lot of good info.

 

[Adam]

wade;1103912 wrote: Thanks for posting! I was thinking of something similar to this as well. Wasn't sure if this would interrupt the Bean style or if it would help. I was also wondering if putting the gate valve(s) just above the sump would matter vs at the back of the DT.

I'm willing to play around with it, although I am trying to plan it right from the outset.

Yeah, with a bean you don't want to vent it. The gate controls the flow.
If you put the gate in the basement you're asking for a lot of exercise unless you're on the phone with someone standing in front of the DT every time you need to make an adjustment to the valve. I don't know if putting 2 gate valves on the line will work but it's worth looking at. Again when you get a chance check out the thread on RC.

 

[wade]

EnderG60;1103917 wrote: Ok 2 things. First, for silence you will want straight falls for vertical and slightly sloped for horizontal. If you still have noise(and I still had some) you can wrap pipes in 1" insulation. Same stuff you use for freeze protection or something similar. it will deaden the noise. Second 1 plank may not be large enough or in the right place. What I did was get a wooden floor vent and cut the hole that size so when I move I just drop the vent in as a dummy and off I go.

What type of overflow arrangement are you using?

The more I think about it, the more placing the gate valves down low on a bean animal makes sense for helping deaden sound as the pipe will fill and stay full without air input. It'll make for more dead volume the sump has to capture and heavier pipes, but seems logical.

 

[wade]

anit77;1103920 wrote: 1. 1200-1500gph is a lot of flow for a 90DT. With rock and sand, if you use sand, you're looking at around 75 gallons in the DT. At 1500gph you'll have 20 times turn over in there. That's quite a bit of flow through the sump unless it's a real big sump.
I have a 220 DT with about 185 to 190 gallons and a 90 sump with 60 gallons in it and my return is pushing about 1600 gph...

2. You're never going to get that amount of flow using a Vectra L1 with the head pressure you have. If it's 9' from the floor down to the sump and lets say 4' up to the tank you'll have 13' of head before you add any fittings. All said and done you're going to have 15-18' with fittings and you'll be lucky to get 500gph of flow to the tank.

With that said 5 times turn over is 375 gph. So it's not bad if you can get that 500 and you can get away with using 1" PVC. Just do whatever you can to keep the number of fittings on the return line to a minimum and if possible reduce the distance from the floor of the tank to the sump below. If you elevate the sump off the floor some you can reduce the amount of head you have.

Take a look at the Bean animal thread on Reef Central. It's a huge thread but if you search it with "basement" you'll probably find a lot of good info.

I aim for 10-15x turnover for my tanks typically, but you are right. A larger sump is required. I should consider using my gyre and turning down the flow between tanks although too low a flow can be just as problematic for noise. The total head height is 9' (sump&gt;tank top) plus pipe friction, which (should) include a single 90 turn into the tank itself. Assuming Ecotech derived their head chart from using a pipe.

 

[wade]

So I found a handy industrial calculator for head loss. With my 9' and the 90 in a 1" pipe it is equivalent to 15' of loss. Vectra @ 15' is only 500gph. Well. May need to think about my pump.

 

[Adam]

wade;1103923 wrote: What type of overflow arrangement are you using?

The more I think about it, the more placing the gate valves down low on a bean animal makes sense for helping deaden sound as the pipe will fill and stay full without air input. It'll make for more dead volume the sump has to capture and heavier pipes, but seems logical.

I'm using a overflow made by http://www.exoticmarinesystems.com/collections/overflows-systems">Exotic Marine Systems</a>, using 1-1/2 PVC. Mine is a 60" that isn't listed on the site yet. The only noise it makes is when it's purging air at startup or when it's out of sync and more water is running down the stand pipe. This is usually when a snail gets stuck in the gate or a change is made in the manifold. I am very impressed with how quiet is setup runs.
Here's a shot of it from the back.
[IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1086329&postcount=31">http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1086329&postcount=31</a>


[QUOTE=][B]wade;1103924 wrote:[/B] I aim for 10-15x turnover for my tanks typically, but you are right. A larger sump is required. I should consider using my gyre and turning down the flow between tanks although too low a flow can be just as problematic for noise. The total head height is 9' (sump&gt;tank top) plus pipe friction, which (should) include a single 90 turn into the tank itself. Assuming Ecotech derived their head chart from using a pipe.[/QUOTE]

Between my powerheads and the return I can get up to 50 times flow but I'm normally running it around 20 with about 8~9 coming from the return, but the 90G sump handles it fine. I'm also looking to swap the sump out with a 120G soon.

With 10 to 12 feet of total head you'll be getting 1000-1200gph with the pump running wide open. If you put a ball valve on the return these numbers will drop a couple hundred gph. Using 1" pipe you will not have a problem with it pulling a full siphon even with the gate valve close to the DT. Once the Ghost is setup right it will run silent in under 3 minutes, probably much less than that.

If you're ever up my way feel free to stop by. I'd be happy to show you the ins & outs of the Bean and how quiet it is.

 

[enderg60]

wade;1103923 wrote: What type of overflow arrangement are you using?

The more I think about it, the more placing the gate valves down low on a bean animal makes sense for helping deaden sound as the pipe will fill and stay full without air input. It'll make for more dead volume the sump has to capture and heavier pipes, but seems logical.

Exactly what Im doing. I still get some noise from the secondary drain as I cant fine tune the primary drain close enough to get less water going through the secondary drain. Thats why I decided to put some insulation on the piping.

Right now the loudest thing on my tank is the fan and wave box. When both of those are off you can't even hear a hum.

 

[myvwrock]

hfleming;1103902 wrote: The pipe traveling down to the left is the drain. The short 1 foot pipe pointing straight up is the siphon break. It's open at the top.

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I guess the tank is still set up haha
Chris C

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[frag freak]

The outlet placement makes me nervous, can you move it over on the wall to that bare top left corner of the pic away from the return/drain?

 

[hfleming]

I'm not sure what you mean.