Tankraised, tank bred, captivebred?

[broreefr]

FutureInterest wrote: I don't think this is the right forum to be complaining about your arc discount... and its most definately not the topic of this thread. If you're having problems then talk to the arc board.

I dont think reef discussion is the place for a retail business, who is not honoring their agreement to attempt to try and smooze one over on us by "renaming" corals to reclaim their "hidden value" when it clearly is an attempt to boost profit.

btw, I have spoken to board members concerning this (they were already aware of it from NUMEROUS complaints about the same thing)

If one of the industry leaders or premier researchers were pushing this reclassification I would listen, if it is to be a lecture subject at SWU III, I am listening, but a retailer, one who has looked me in the face and shot me one excuse after another as to why they were too profit hungry to honor their own agrrement ~ I aint listening, and I smell a price increase.

A certificate or memo on the wall from CBA that says how long a coral has been in captivity and a quarter will not by you a cup of coffee.

why not run this same idea over on RC and see how people will JUMP to bring extra cash to the bay because they dreamed this up

 

[kalkbreath]

The clarification of coral cultured phrases has little to do with in store price increases at cappuccino bay.
Were are about to launch a new product line from a coral culturing business in Texas.
This company already is the worlds leader in Maxima Clam culturing.
Many of you have become used to seeing CBA's large selection of Maxima clams, and are most likely un aware that our in store collection is the largest in the world. Because we have far more clams then the local market can consume, We are about to launch the webs largest clam store and we want to add a few more products to complement the clams site.
We are about to start carrying this companies domesticated cultured coral products in the retail and on web store.
Their cultured corals are completely aquarium propagated and most of their coral morphs have been in captivity for many years.
This new product will compete directly with Ocean cultured corals in the market place.
However due to several well known coral growers changing their product lines from growing their corals in Florida greenhouses to pacific island grown sunlight and ocean water produced corals, yet still calling these non aquarium grown corals "fully acclimated" and "aquacultured"...it seems like a good time to draw distinctions between captive grown in an aquarium and Ocean grown.
It remains to be seen if the public is willing to pay more for hardier captive grown corals or if the low price thing will continue to drive the market in the direction of wild and semi wild products.
We will continue selling wild , ocean cultured and aquarium cultured corals in the retail store. It would be nice if the hobbyists could base their purchasing decisions with a clear comprehension of each farmed corals background.
At cappuccino bay we have always liked to support the coral farming businesses and prefer farmed products to wild collected because we feel farmed products offer the consumer a better product, both dollar wise and environmentally.
Now if we could just convince the hobbyists....
Jeff CBA

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Kalkbreath wrote: This is from WIKIPEIA

I would say that " have their behavior, life cycle, or physiology systemically altered as a result of being under humans control " would qualify Captive corals as Domesticated. Corals which under artificial light and synthetic seawater are physiology different from their wild counterparts.
I wonder if captive xenia would even survive in the wild ? or would it melt?

Jeff- I would disgree with you completely on this. Corals in our care have not had their behavior, life cycle, or physicology altered- we have simply provided them with an environment somewhat similar to natural conditions. A "domesticated" coral would be one that can tolerate massive temperature swings, excessively high or low salinities, or similar. Using your example, is man in a space shuttle in space still not a man? He is not on earth, is not breathing our atmosphere, is not under the laws of gravity, but he's not a hybrid, correct? The deliniation here is that we are not creating a coral to withstand our tanks, we are creating tanks to support the corals. This is why corals cannot be considered domesticated.

Now, that being said, I am on the same team as you- there does need to be some universal terminology in this hobby. But this will be very difficult, because there is no policing, or agreement, as Dakota mentioned. In your case, I would hope the reputation and experience of your store could validate such claims. For example, if your staff told me that this coral was from a colony 5 years captive, I would believe them. However, and another store, perhaps not. Quite honestly, the same is being done with fish nowadays. When I buy a fish, I will be more comfortable if I believe it is been living in an aquarium for 5 years, rather than 5 minutes. Your question is- how do we phrase it? I think the more important question is- how can you convince consumers to believe it? In your case (for your store)- I think the ebst thing you can do is make such a proclamation. This hobby is quite slow in enforcing ethical actions- look at fish collection- cyanide is still used, and only recently has the industry as a whole began to figure out ways to phase it out.

Bro- I dont agree with your viewpoint. Just because Jeff owns a business doesn't mean he cant inquire on ways to make this hobby better. That is the goal, not increasing his profits. If you, or anyone, has a problem with discount issues, you should individually bring it up with him. But to add to this- at no time was anyone ever guranateed a discount on anything they would purchase at a retailer. It has always been up to the businesses discretion. I think Cap Bay is a great store, and stands out above the majority of other similar stores nationwide.

Just my opnion, though.

 

[broreefr]

jmaneyapanda wrote: Bro- I dont agree with your viewpoint. Just because Jeff owns a business doesn't mean he cant inquire on ways to make this hobby better. That is the goal, not increasing his profits. If you, or anyone, has a problem with discount issues, you should individually bring it up with him. But to add to this- at no time was anyone ever guranateed a discount on anything they would purchase at a retailer. It has always been up to the businesses discretion. I think Cap Bay is a great store, and stands out above the majority of other similar stores nationwide.

Just my opnion, though.

I never siad he couldnt inquire about anything, never, please do not say I did, that would be outright misinformation. I merely asked was his store planning on renaming or reclassifying said coral. He replied yes

He asked for opinions, I gave mine. it still holds, a business owner gets up in the morning and puts on pants to make a profit, if he doesnt he wont be in business long, the others that go to that business are called customers, and employees. when a businees owner starts talking about renaming existing merchandise to claim "hidden value" to pass my way and asks how I feel, you will get how I feel.

Sponsors all have thier own forum, you wont find a post from me disputing what he is advertising for his store, when he comes to a reef discussion forum it's a tad different

his own post says to answer me

"As for club discounts, As a in store customer, you can choose to apply one of four discount routes.
1.) apply your club discount to the regular in store price."

I was THERE FEB 13th bought several corals at REGULAR price and was told and I will quote again "We dont give discounts on Acros, especially one that big.

I have nothing negative to say about the store, if you have been there, it speaks for itself. I dont think;however, there is a need to run off the cliff like a Lemming just because it was proposed by CBA

Believe as you will ~ but I been around long enough to know that perhaps that yellow tinted liquid falling on your head may not indeed be rain.

Oh and let me add the standard disclaimer that is supposed to make it all good - Just my opinion :roll:

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Broreefr wrote: I never siad he couldnt inquire about anything, never, please do not say I did, that would be outright misinformation. I merely asked was his store planning on renaming or reclassifying said coral. He replied yes

He asked for opinions, I gave mine. it still holds, a business owner gets up in the morning and puts on pants to make a profit, if he doesnt he wont be in business long, the others that go to that business are called customers, and employees. when a businees owner starts talking about renaming existing merchandise to claim "hidden value" to pass my way and asks how I feel, you will get how I feel.

Sponsors all have thier own forum, you wont find a post from me disputing what he is advertising for his store, when he comes to a reef discussion forum it's a tad different

his own post says to answer me

"As for club discounts, As a in store customer, you can choose to apply one of four discount routes.
1.) apply your club discount to the regular in store price."

I was THERE FEB 13th bought several corals at REGULAR price and was told and I will quote again "We dont give discounts on Acros, especially one that big.

I have nothing negative to say about the store, if you have been there, it speaks for itself. I dont think;however, there is a need to run off the cliff like a Lemming just because it was proposed by CBA

Believe as you will ~ but I been around long enough to know that perhaps that yellow tinted liquid falling on your head may not indeed be rain.

Oh and let me add the standard disclaimer that is supposed to make it all good - Just my opinion :roll:

Fair enough- If I misquoted you, I was wrong, and I apologize. You are right business owners do shoot to make a profit. But that is not the only thing. Particularly in this industry, conservation and customer education also play a huge role. This is the track that I dont think you are giving fair play. Sure, it could just be a ploy to boost prices. But why would he inquire on this forum if that were his intentions? Why not just do it and raise prices? Clandestine plans are not announced far and wide. He did not come to this forum and ask "How can I make more money off you?", or "How can I market better?" He asked abut our thoughts on a consolidated and uniform dictionary for commonly used terms in this industry. That does apply to this forum, not the CBA forum. He may use that better in his purposes, but that is his right. We cannot start asking everyone why they are asking the questions before we answer.

I am not debating your experience with that purchase. If this is what was said, then I believe you. But you should take it up with him personally, not mention it on a thread discussing terminology used in this hobby. I have been in your shoes, and have learned of such "discount transagressions" from these threads, but I took it to the merchant privately, and resolved them.

That being said, I think we will have to politely agree to disagree on this store and their practices. If Cap Bay inquires for my assistance in trying to better serve customers, help in conservation aspects, and better their operation, I will assist them. You have every right to disagree, and argue your point (which I do understand). I dont feel the same.

 

[FutureInterest]

Bro and Jmaney. I love reading your verbal jousts... they're so polite and "well spoken." I've yet to master this art of getting your point across without sounding like a pompous jerk.

 

[broreefr]

jmaneyapanda wrote: Sure, it could just be a ploy to boost prices. But why would he inquire on this forum if that were his intentions? Why not just do it and raise prices? Clandestine plans are not announced far and wide. He did not come to this forum and ask "How can I make more money off you?", or "How can I market better?" He asked abut our thoughts on a consolidated and uniform dictionary for commonly used terms in this industry. That does apply to this forum, not the CBA forum. He may use that better in his purposes, but that is his right. We cannot start asking everyone why they are asking the questions before we answer. .

P.T Barnum would really love you as a ""Customer"" :lol2:

jmaneyapanda wrote:
I am not debating your experience with that purchase. If this is what was said, then I believe you. But you should take it up with him personally, not mention it on a thread discussing terminology used in this hobby. I have been in your shoes, and have learned of such "discount transagressions" from these threads, but I took it to the merchant privately, and resolved them.
.

Do you think I did NOT take it up with them, I have never been one not to speak my mind, I believe it is painfully clear on these boards. to answer your comment - I did take it up with them at the time of purchase (SEVERAL PURCHASES) I did'nt just bolt from the store like a scared puppy and run to the cover of the boards. but by the same token, I am not about to make a scene and get locked down in county jail behind bait and switch business tactics (IMO remember this makes it OK). I did exactly what I should have as I previously posted and reported it to at least one member of the board, perhaps you should browse the entire thread.

Some of you guys in here blow in on what you consider a questionable response with a quick "take it up with them personally", or "this forum is for this" and a lot of times it is ill advised and could lead to escalated tempers. Let that "very profitable" business owner speak for himself.

Hell we cant get the agreed opon discount, he's not going to give you good people a break in price for continually blowing sunshine up his arse.

IMO that is :blush:

 

[jmaneyapanda]

P.T Barnum would really love you as a ""Customer"" :lol2:

Forgive my ignorance, but what does this mean? Am I an easy target?

For your information, I have read the posts thoroughly. You did say you complained to a board member, who had heard similar complaints. I learned now that also complained in person at the time of the purchase, but still purchased the item. But this wasn't good enough? You still felt it necessary to post about it in a thread on terminology in the hobby, huh? You're absolutely right, he did ask our opinion of adjusted terminology- what does this have to do with a discount? You expressed your opinion that you felt it would increase price- very possibly correct, but again, what does this have to do with a discount? It appears to me your issue is not with terminology or price increase at CBA, but instead with a failure to get discounts. But what does this have to do with this thread? If you want an answer from Jeff, call him up, send him an email, start a new thread, go to him directly- don't tack it into a thread that has nothing to do with it.

I find it rather ironic that you are making accusations for actions that you are committing.

 

[broreefr]

Broreefr wrote:
Hell we cant get the agreed opon discount, he's not going to give you good people a break in price for continually blowing sunshine up his arse.

I take it all back, he apparently is :shades: - your thread boss, I am out !!!!

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Bro- I hope you are not taking this too personally, I am not trying to be abusive. If Jeff decides to raise his prices, and doesnt give me a discount he has promised, he wont get my business. That is the solution I can produce.

 

[kalkbreath]

I asked the sales staff and they seem to agree that the acros were on sale at the time of his purchase. If the customer in question did not see the on sale sign at the time of purchase, we apologies and we at CBA are making strides to improve in store signage to avoid further confusion.
All SPS on sale will now be in a separate section of the store to eschew confusion.

But what word selection should place on such sign?
...... "sale price" or "on sale price" Whats the difference between "on sale" and "for sale"........words words words!

 

[broreefr]

Look , I will back out and let you have your reclassification thread, but do not attempt to play me for an idiot, you know that is not the case. The items we DISCUSSED at the counter were not on sale. and a staff who are employees will ""seem to agree"" with whoever signs the check

Now please have at all the renaming you care to do.

 

[dakota]

Kalkbreath, I think you might have missed the point of my Dr's Foster and Smith comment. The point was that they are selling frags of a coral that has demonstrated to their satisfaction that it will thrive under captive care conditions. To demonstrate their confidence in the health and heartiness of these frags they are willing to extend their guarantee to one month.

Certified Captive-Grown means that they grew it in their tanks. Just because a coral has been propagated for decades doesn't guarantee that it came from a well maintained system or is a healthy specimen. Being willing to guarantee its health does imply that is the case.

You can classify your corals any way that you like. It's your store.

But why should I as a consumer care about this classification?
From a consumer's standpoint, what does this actually mean?

I can get healthy frags from my friends for free that I know do well in aquarium conditions.

If I like it, if it's healthy, if the price is reasonable; then I'll buy it.
If it came out of a tank rather than the ocean; I can feel good about that.

I am very happy to hear that you are supporting aquacultured corals and inverts. I applaud your being on the cutting edge of this.

 

[kalkbreath]

Some hobbyists like the idea that the donor mother colony was not removed from the reef. In some cases that color morph may no longer exists on the reef because the entire mother colony is usually removed.
In almost all cases , when an online vendor says the mother colony "came" form Fiji or Tonga....... what they really mean is that the mother colony was removed from Fiji, sent to the USA and chopped into small fragments, grown out a bit on a plug and sold as "aquacultured."
(Its worth noting that it is not legal to ship frags from Fiji or Tonga.)Tony and Rick can attest to this.
True aquacultured corals should not be from broken up wild colonies.
Thats a "chop shop". Now I'm not against chop shop farming. I think we can do better down the road and place less pressure on certain rare in the wild corals by 100% captive propagation.
But there needs to be an exclusive term given to non impact aqua culturing of corals.
because looking at it from the reefs point of view, there is a big difference.

 

[melissa]

Since there are no industry-wide standards for what is considered to be captive raised, aquacultured, etc, why not have a sort of explanation on the web site where you list such corals for sale. For instance, if you have a bunch of corals that you've raised in house from frags of a coral that was wild, just simply explain that at the top of the page. Many folks that sell frags online (other brick and mortars) will get in a wild colony of something they consider to be really unique. Instead of selling the colony, they keep it and sell a certain number of frags off that colony, thereby maintaining or increasing the population of that particular coral within our captive systems.

My understanding of aquacultured corals is that the coral is fragged from a mother colony on the reef, placed on a plug in the ocean at another site and allowed to grow out into a small colony, then shipped to a retailer. It is still not raised in a captive system.

Frags that are traded or sold to cut back larger growing corals in our systems are what I would consider captive-raised, since that part of the coral has grown since being placed in the captive system.

I think the term domesticated is inappropriate for corals (at this time) because of the generations and generations that are involved, not just in the adaptation of the animal itself which again takes generations. The key point in using the word "domesticated" is in the time involved. Domestication takes many generations. We can't accurately describe corals as domesticated, comparing them to dogs who've been kept by us for thousands of years BC. How many years have people been successfully keeping corals? (45 years - maybe?) How old is the oldest captive coral? The fact is, there is still such a high mortality rate of captive kept corals. That fact itself does not lend itself to successfully using the term domestication at this time.

 

[kalkbreath]

As I stated before, this is more about changing the entire national hobby lingo then it is about local store adaptions.(seems the locals dont really make distinctions)

But maybe with the next generation of hobbyists we can ingrain a new broader sense of consumer cause and effect.

Melissa... if we Lump ocean grown corals under the "aqua cultured" phrase,
There will be no indication of the coral's origin,(wild/impact or no impact) aquarium readiness( sun/seawater or artificial) or wether or not it supports Islanders jobs or American pockets. At least with "Ocean Cultured" its understood where the grow out phase takes place.


Even in the face of this difficult and perhaps for the most part fruitless task:I still think the newbies deserve an explanation of each choice and how their purchase affects the reefs, their aquarium and their pocket books.

Many times mis directed hobbyists filled with good intentions actually end up causing the very thing they were hoping to avoid to happen two fold.
Like wishing to help save the reefs by buying home grown corals:
*buying corals grown in America deprives native islanders of an income.
causing islanders to return to land based farming and inturn creating soil runoff which kills their local reefs.
*or buying wild acropora because its cheaper...only to have them fade away requiring multiple repurchases to find one that lives.

Catch phrases are the first impressions , short descriptive terms
(like ("Tank Raised") are usually not followed by a long drawn out definition in day to day usage.


But in order to overcome the effects of our hobby's current set of weakly worded catch phrases' we must comprise a new set which better expresses the differences.