The Ick (Ich) Crossroad

[tsunami]

So I have finally come to a crossroad that I’m sure most of us come to. I have a tank that continually gets ick. I think I got it on some live rock (thanks). I have lost 3 tangs, 2 lion fish, 3 puffers…….. etc. Know I’m down to two damsel fish. I’ve treated them with Rid Ick, Seachem’s Coppermine, and Paragaurd and (of course, since I’m writing this note) nothing has worked. So I’m down to two options:

Option 1: Remove the two damsels and run the tank for 4 to 6 weeks without fish.

Option 2: Fill the tank with fresh (no salt) water and kill the ick and etc. I was thinking of running for 48hrs with fresh water.

I am leaning towards option 2 because it will be just as quick or quicker to recycle the tank for the two damsel fish, especially since I have several other tanks that are fine to steal biomaterial from. This would definitely kill the live rock that is in there, but I’m sure that everything is dead, but the basic ammonia, nitrite, nitrate bacteria that is still alive on it because of all the chemicals. So I want to know what ya’ll think. Option 1 or 2? Also, I’m afraid that the incrusting stage of the ick life cycle will survive through either of these treatments. What do ya’ll think?

 

[fishybusiness]

My favorite way was to always lower the salinity to 1.014, run paraguard for a minimum of 15 days and raise the temp to 80-81 if you could without hurting everything. You can also feed your fish medicated food and pump it full of garlic (I do that with all my fish anytime I get something new).

 

[xyzpdq0121]

The ONLY way to get rid of it in my opinion is to run the tank fallow for 4-6 weeks. If it can not host, it can not brred and WILL die.. Rid Ich and crap like that is just that, crap... There are a few treatments that you can do but none of them are quick! Lesson number one in reef keeping, nothing good comes quickly in the hobby.

Best of luck!

 

[tsunami]

I agree that there are no quick or easy answers!!!

 

[msnajkowski]

Did you treat your Display tank. If so your rock is full of copper. Not good.

 

[tsunami]

No, copper on the live rock. I did use the rid ich which has the formaldhyde. The copper was used in the QT.

 

[kappaknight]

Do you have skunk cleaner shrimps in your setup? I don't know if puffers eat them but they do a good job of cleaning the fish.

 

[flyingarmy]

A Coral Banded Shrimp is also a great cleaner....ich be gone!

 

[tedman920]

uv sterelizers get rid of the free floating ich.

 

[tsunami]

I've had a coral life twist UV sterelizer on there for almost a month and I still have the same problem. It has a new bulb in it, so it shouldn't be that. I would try the shrimp, but It is my "puffer trigger tank." When I do have fish in it.

This goes to show that all the technology in the world can't save you some times (UV sterilizer, RO/DI machine, MH lights, refugium, protien skimmer, ......).

 

[xyzpdq0121]

Porter, That is one of the best written posts I have seen in a long time. I have been searching for a store that runs either a 30 QT cycle on all fish and inverts or a CU holding system. I have yet to find one. (Thought about starting up my own if given the itch for a mid-life crisis)

I agree with Porter 100%. I do not subscribe to the theory that Ich is always present but it is one theory. I do however advocate a 30 QT for every fish and invert you bring in the system. Fish should have a FW dip before QT and I give one after for good measure. Yes you did read right, I did say QT inverts. No they can not "give" Ich to your fish but believe it or not, they can carry it into your tank. I did not believe it myself till I traced back an outbreak to inverts.

I do not believe in "quick cures". There are a few treatments that you can use, some are harsh and work, other take a lot of time and energy but are safer, some are based on a hope and a pryer. NONE of them are a quick cure that works. (I say, except for Maroon and his Green Ex! ) UV is great, I am getting ready to experiment with it and Ich as soon as I can buy one for a good price. Garlic is something that some sware by but none can prove. You not a complete ich free system, you got to let it run for 4-6 weeks fallow. No exceptions.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

The only disagreement I'll make is that I dont feel the fish should be prophylactically treated for diseases. Medications, no matter how gentle they claim to be, are stressful. So, if the fish were to show signs, by all means, treat them. However, if the fish shows no signs, I dont feel it necessary to treat. Especially with a environmentally hard substance such as copper.

Something else to consider- free use of medications repeatedly or thoroughly will cause an inevitable ineffectiveness of that drug. Let me offer an example, I used to work at a LFS in New York, where all new arrivals went into a holding system. This holding system was routinely and periodically dosed with formalin. Over time (well before I started), the Nictobacter and Nitrosoma bacteria "mutated", and eventually, the ones which could withstand the formalin proliferated, while the ones that couldn't did not. This allowed us to have a holding system which we could dose with formalin, and keep the biological filter intact. Fish, and more importantly, fish parasites, could now be treated with a strong medication as needed, with minimal effort. But, if the object of the formalin was to kill these bacteria, I have screwed myself (so to speak). Now, in this case, the outcome was positive, the same is not always true. I can provide a laundry list of medications which are not used in veterinary medicine nowadays, because they would used "too" extensively 20 ior 30 years ago, and the diseases have changed enough to make them ineffective. Do I think a hobbyist will do this in their tank? Surely not. But, is it pssible that copper may one day not be effective in treating some of these ailments. Well, maybe so.

 

[xyzpdq0121]

I agree with the resistance that can be formed by many "nasty" things if proper treatment is not followed. Which is why any antibiotic should be taken fully even if you feel better. I also do not agree with treating afish with something like CU if you don't have to. But, it has been my experience and also documented, that if you only treat the fish that you can see have Ich and leave the others in the tank, the Ich will still have ahost and you might never get rid of it. Ok, so your favorite wrass does not show ich but your tang does, Set up a QT/hotel for the Wrass and and a hospital for the Tang and leave the display tank without anything in it. This way you can monitor the Wrass and treat the tang without giving the Ich anything to live on.

I also believe in other treatments that are a lot safer then copper or formalin. Heck, I am currently testing out natural immunity treatments for Ich. So far, I can not erradicat it but I can hold it to one or two trophont a day but not a "major" outbreak.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

aquazoa wrote: Formalin typically is not employed to kill bacteria although in enough concentration can do so. It is for larger ectoparasites like Cryptocaryon, Amyloodinium, Uronema, Brooklynella, Trichodina, and trematode flukes, Turbellarian flatworms, and so on. It kills a wide range of bugs but bacterial issues would be dealt with antibiotic combinations. When system water is sent to waste it should be mixed with bleach to insure breakdown of the antibiotic.

Porter, I agree that we typically do not apply</em> formalin to kill bacteria, but you better believe it will do so. Formaldehyde (of which formalin is a dilution) (which I'm sure you know), will pretty much kill nearly anything. All those pickled preserved animals are stored in formaldehyde, because it destroys the living bacteria and bugs that would initiate decomposition. Formalin is one of the premium antibiotuics (by which, i mean anti-living). It is rarely used as a treatment agent due to its indiscriminant and extreme nature.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Xyzpdq0121 wrote: I agree with the resistance that can be formed by many "nasty" things if proper treatment is not followed. Which is why any antibiotic should be taken fully even if you feel better. I also do not agree with treating afish with something like CU if you don't have to. But, it has been my experience and also documented, that if you only treat the fish that you can see have Ich and leave the others in the tank, the Ich will still have ahost and you might never get rid of it. Ok, so your favorite wrass does not show ich but your tang does, Set up a QT/hotel for the Wrass and and a hospital for the Tang and leave the display tank without anything in it. This way you can monitor the Wrass and treat the tang without giving the Ich anything to live on.

I also believe in other treatments that are a lot safer then copper or formalin. Heck, I am currently testing out natural immunity treatments for Ich. So far, I can not erradicat it but I can hold it to one or two trophont a day but not a "major" outbreak.

The reason I've made this statement is because I often hear people saying they routinely run their quarantine tank in hyposalinity. While I think this can prevent a potention outbreak, I also think it is an unnecessary stress to an otherwise healthy fish. My point is just that no treatment will be completely harmless, so they should only be applied when necessary. We can certainly chosse to use the less severe ones (as you are), with a wide safety margin, but there may still be a negative side effect, no matter how small or negligible it may appear.

 

[xyzpdq0121]

jmaneyapanda wrote: The reason I've made this statement is because I often hear people saying they routinely run their quarantine tank in hyposalinity. While I think this can prevent a potention outbreak, I also think it is an unnecessary stress to an otherwise healthy fish. My point is just that no treatment will be completely harmless, so they should only be applied when necessary. We can certainly chosse to use the less severe ones (as you are), with a wide safety margin, but there may still be a negative side effect, no matter how small or negligible it may appear.

Agreed, no need to treat for Ich or anything else till you can diagnose an illness on the fish. I would not start treating you for cancer just because I believe there is a chance that you could get it. The only preventive that I think anyone should use (and always use it), is a FW dip with Meth Blue before and after QT. I think there HAS TO BE a 4 week QT period for any new fish. I sucks to get the unicorn tang you have always wanted just to have to wait 4 week to put it into your tank. You have to do it though. Until I find a LFS that I trust has put the fish through a 4-6 week QT for me, and I have not been able to find one except in Arizona, then you got to do it yourself.

 

[coblerx4]

I am to new in this hobby to give you any advice but I can tell you my experience with Ick. This past fall I lost a Puffer, followed the next day by a Blue Tang that had raw scratches on it. I did not have a clue what was happening. Got online and found out about Ick. I tried the fresh water dip on the Blue tang but it did not make it. My Yellow Tang was now covered with Ick and one Clown fish was looking sick. I spent hours on the forum looking up past post for info. I knew I did not know enough about Reef Tanks to try Chem. So I took a little advice from each forum. That day I bought a Cleaner Shrimp, UV Light, Food with garlic, raised the temp to 82, and put a air stone in the tank. Like magic the Ick went away. I do not know which thing worked or if it was a combo of everthing. But thanks for the people of this site. That was not a fun time. I am glad to say that was 5 months ago and the Ick has not been back.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

aquazoa wrote: And Cobler's message is an important one.......what about fish that are already in a system with live rock, inverts, and one doesn't have the luxury of treatment? One has to approach the situation with a muti-faceted strategy:
1. Maintain temp. constant at 80-82 to speed up parasites' life cycle.

I'll add one important aspect to this. Keep oxygen levels up. Increased temp with poor circulation will stress a fish even further, and cause a more susceptible fish.


Please dont take this as an attack either Porter, but I also have noticed a lot of the fish at your store have severe head and lateral line erosion. My <u>opinion</u></em>, is that the water parameters you have mentioned certainly can reduce pathogens, but may also cause other issues, such as HLLE. I have no evidence to back this up, just my observations. So, please take my comments with a grain of salt.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Porter, please don't take my comment as an attack. If I needed to hold as many fish as you, perhaps I would run copper consistantly and hyposalinity as well. I agree, that in your case, pathogen control can certainly take precenece over potential HLLE issues. But, as for all the other hobbyists who may look to this thread for advice, I dont think it can be claimed that there is no side effects.

As far as I know, there is no definitive cause or cure for HLLE. Some speculate it is vitamin related or dietary, some speculate environmental. Personally, I think it may be all mixed, as environmental conditions absolutely play a part in vitamin synthesis and utilization, as does diet. I have seen many many bad cases of HLLE at public aquariums, stores, and in hobbyists tanks. The one thing that I see in similar, is that they have or are usually being held or kept in a system with "unnaturally" clean waters. By this, I mean massive ozone exposure, chemical sterilization (including copper and such), or parameter manipulation (such as hyposalinity). Again, these are just my observations and opinions. No evidence or data to back them up.

My only point I was trying to make, is I dont think its accurate or fair to say that all fish should be treated using the methods described. In the case of your store, that may be absolutely necssary, but for all the rest of us in the hobby, I think it is counterproductive. Just my opinion.

 

[tsunami]

When I started this thread, I did not know that it was going to turn into something so big. Wow. Thanks ya'll. It has gotten to the point where some fish seem like they are going to make and some just are not. Just for the record. Puffer fish will eat the fins off your lionfish. I put them togther in my QT tank because several people said it would be ok (includeing fish store owner). Its only ok if you don't like your lionfish.