Two Sumps, Same Size, 15FT Apart

[philciccone]

I am trying to figure out how to plumb two sumps together where water circulated from one to the other and vice-versa. The are exactly the same height on concrete slabs, and exactly the same size. The only easy way I can figure to do this is the cut a trench in concrete and bury two pipes underneath. One large for the return and one smaller for the pressure side. This would be the worst-case situation, as it involves heavy construction. The sumps cannot be raised off of the concrete. Overhead piping options are available. On a small scale, we did try the experiment of a larger piece of tubing from one side to the other, overhead then flooding it. Then we connected a smaller piece of tubing on the pressure/pump side back to the other sump. This does work to equalize each side, but the return piping has to be considerably larger than the pump piping, and if we ever get air in the line we would be screwed.

Can anyone else think of any ideas?
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[myreefclub0070]

Just curious ......why?

 

[philciccone]

Tanks on two sides of a room (lets call it a small warehouse), down rows of steel racking. The water between the sumps needs to be shared, filtration, skimming, automation, heating/cooling, etc. It will be a large scale setup.

 

[acroholic]

I would not do that any other way than the concrete trench. You should not have them going overhead at all. And, depending on the run between the two separate sumps and the flow you want, You should have a minimum 1.5" tubing between them, preferably 2", and maybe even wider. You do not want any level equalization in the sumps to be anything but gravity dependent. That means the pipe keeping the sumps equal should be no higher than the lowest water level in the sump., and preferably as low to the bottom of the sump as you can get.

The above pipe sizes will be greatly dependent on what size tank, what size return pump, and/or what volume of water you want to circulate between the two sumps as well. Also, what distance between the sumps are you talking about?

Personally, I would not do this. I would either increase the footprint size of a single sump, or use the existing footprint of one of them, but double the height.

 

[philciccone]

Acroholic;964396 wrote: I would not do that any other way than the concrete trench.

New thread title: WTB someone with a demolition saw who wants to cut me a 18FT trench and mix a bag of concrete right behind me after I drop a 3" and a 1.5" PVC pipe in the hole

Phil

 

[myreefclub0070]

If you pump over from one, the only way with out pumping back with another pump which is not a good idea, is if the one with out the pump was higher than the other and gravity feed back.
Sounds like a nice mind bender, let me know what you come up with.

 

[acroholic]

philciccone;964397 wrote: New thread title: WTB someone with a demolition saw who wants to cut me a 18FT trench and mix a bag of concrete right behind me after I drop a 3" and a 1.5" PVC pipe in the hole

Phil

Phil,
I don't claim to be the de facto expert on this, and anyone can feel free to correct me, but I have always believed that the simplest solution is the best solution, and in reefing that means the least amount of mechanical moving parts, the least number of electrically dependent parts, and the simplest flow path.

An example of this is is something like an RODI container with a float valve. What is the safest failsafe for preventing an overflow? An electric float switch that turns off an electric solenoid? The float switch itself? Not really. It is a 1/2" or 3/4" bulkhead installed at the highest level you want in the container, feeding a piece of PVC or vinyl tubing going to a drain or the outside of the house. Almost 100% failsafe and will not fail you, unlike the electric or mechanical options I listed. No moving parts, no electrical components, and gravity does it all.

There would also be nothing wrong with the connecting pipe being level on the floor, unless that is not an option for aesthetic of whatever reasons, like it getting kicked or interfering with your business function..

 

[rdnelson]

I am with Dave. Based on your picture I would say at the minimum the unpressurized line would need to be below or at slab level. But, depending on flow rates, a lot of crud could build up and in time slow the flow leading to an overflow on the right hand tank.


I know you all think I have no heart but now I have an ultrasound to prove it.

 

[rdnelson]

As for cutting the slab, call B and D Concrete Cutting. Tell them the length and how wide you want it and that you want them to remove and dispose. The patch back could be done using Premix that you mix in a wheel barrel. To avoid cracking of the slab, anything bigger than a 3/4" conduit would need to be burry in the dirt below. If there is a vapor barrier under the slab you would need to repair that also or you will get moisture coming up from below.


I know you all think I have no heart but now I have an ultrasound to prove it.

 

[philciccone]

Amazing, I got quotes for the job as low as $450 and as high as $4,500. I cannot believe companies can quote these crazy ranges for the exact same job. I think I am going to pick one of the companies who quoted at $500 and states they can provide proof of insurance at the start of the job.

 

[jdavid]

I don't understand why you don't just drill the sides of each sump and install bulkheads and plumb them together.. What am I missing here

 

[philciccone]

JDavid;964585 wrote: I don't understand why you don't just drill the sides of each sump and install bulkheads and plumb them together.. What am I missing here

They are 18ft apart on opposite sides of a room.

 

[jdavid]

It's an equipment room though, right?

Is there any reason why you can't use 90 degree elbows and keep the plumbing up against the wall?

 

[philciccone]

JDavid;964593 wrote: It's an equipment room though, right?

Is there any reason why you can't use 90 degree elbows and keep the plumbing up against the wall?

None of those options exist in our environment, believe me I thought through all scenarios. We have an overhead door to go around one side and multi door ways going the other way.

 

[jdavid]

Oh, doors. Well that makes sense then.

 

[jdavid]

Just one more question... Why not move one of the sumps?

 

[philciccone]

JDavid;964608 wrote: Just one more question... Why not move one of the sumps?

Each sump will be servicing a wall of tanks, on the same side.

 

[jdavid]

Then the last possible alternative solution is considering external equipment if necessary and seperating the systems. Good luck!

 

[philciccone]

JDavid;964618 wrote: Then the last possible alternative solution is considering external equipment if necessary and seperating the systems. Good luck!

Ya, but at this point a $500 labor fee is far cheaper than the sump equipment on the opposite side. Thanks for thinking of ideas with me!

 

[magyarhammer]

Also, this kind of brings to mind all the complications the San Diego Aquarium ran into went they started piping in sea water to keep kelp alive.

Basically every so often they had to pressurize the intake/outflow pipes and send what amounted to a large rubber bullet through the pipes to clean them out.

Of course you are not having to deal with sea water, but if you are going to bury a pipe in concrete you are going to have to at least have good UV to keep build up down, but even then if anything gets caught down there...

I don't know the exact layout, but if I had to deal with something like this I would run the pipes against the wall, use 2x4 to build a terrace against the wall and if there is a door, create a little /bump in the doorway like you do with electrical wire.

Then with the terraced area you can put a lid on it with plywood /drywall. It would then look like molding or you can be creative and spray adhesive sand onto the top sprinkle with shells what have you.