Would you trust an Apex Trident/DOS to maintain your parameters?..

bigd

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I’ve seen some discussion on how to go about setting up a Trident and then using it in conjunction with a DOS to maintain Cal/Alk and possibly Mag. I’ve had a few new comers ask me about it as well. So, the big question is... would you trust it to maintain your system? For me, I’d have to say no... at least not yet.

Here’s a few examples of why...

The graph below shows my calcium over a 7 day period. I run a calcium reactor and top off through a Kalk stirrer. I try to maintain my calcium right around 500, usually it’s +/- 15 of that. You’ll notice there is an uptick that started a little before this snap shot and it continues to rise to around 630 until noon on the 29th where it starts to decline.



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Here’s a graph that shows my magnesium for the same time period. I dose Kent Tech M, usually once a week. I try to maintain it at 1600, but it will fluctuate around +/- 30 of that. You‘ll notice that on the 24th, it was showing that it had dropped to around 1535. It had actually been dropping on a steady basis for the previous week or so. I didn’t change anything in my dosing routine though, on the 25th I added the same dose that I always do... because I knew better than going overboard. This also shows that at noon on the 29th there’s a change, same time and date as the calcium. However, this shows a pretty drastic increase.



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So, what’s the common denominator that caused the readings to head back in the right direction at noon on the 29th? If you own a Trident, you may know the answer... both the calcium and magnesium reagents we’re down to less than 5% remaining. On the 29th, I changed them out before the noon readings were taken. This is the third set of reagents that I’ve used since buying the Trident. With every set, when the Cal and Mag bottles get low, the readings react this way. When I see these changes now, the first thing I do is check is the reagent levels in the app. If they’re low, I just ride it out for the week. I’ve talked to other Trident owners, they‘ve experienced the same results. I really wonder if it had a means of stirring the reagents on a routine basis if it would prevent this.

So, back to the question at hand... would you use it to maintain your levels? If you had a DOS maintaining your system based off of the readings a Trident was providing, there may be some issues when you get down below 10% of the reagents. In my case, the calcium would most likely drop, as the Apex would stop dosing due to the false high reading. As for magnesium, it would most likely be elevated to closer to 1700 as it was showing a false low.

Here’s where my readings are now, all I changed was the reagents... nothing was altered in my dosing regimen. I know the Alk looks pretty lumpy, but those changes are actually all within 0.30 of each other, I usually maintain it at around 11. You can see how the Cal and Mag readings have come back to normal.




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Hopefully this will help someone in making a decision as to whether they should use it as a dosing regimen or not... or help someone wondering what's going on with their readings on their Trident when the reagents gets low.
 
Great write up and it follows my sympathies exactly! I trust “auto testers” to inform me but not make decisions! Great job of keeping the club informed!


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Same problem here, the calcium start to give wrong readings when the reagents are less than %15 left. No problems with alk readings so far, I'm using a carx and programmed the carbon doser to turn off if alk reach 10.5 just in case and it's been very stable since then.
I wouldn't trust TRIDENT/DOS
 
Has anybody put a float switch in their reagents? That seems like a simple and affordable contingency to help prevent/alert when these issues are present.

But I agree. And to answer your question, I’d ask how do you define the limits of the term “trust”?

I may trust an equipment enough to use it and make my life easier. After all, that’s what equipment is for. But there’s no equipment out there that I trust to never fail. Because sooner or later, everything fails. It can be due to design, mechanical failure, or degradation/use. Just my $0.02

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Edit: Also, thanks for all the data! Great summary!!!
 
Has anybody put a float switch in their reagents? That seems like a simple and affordable contingency to help prevent/alert when these issues are present.

There’s really not enough room to get anything in the containers and get the tray back into the machine, it’s a pretty tight fit. I did say I wouldn’t trust it “yet“. The reason I say yet is, the Trident knows when it’s getting low. It will show you the levels at anytime you choose in the app. If they would allow you to use that data in coding to write in alarms or turn on/off inputs/outputs, then it would be a little safer. Something like “ IF TRI REA C <10% THEN DOS A MAG OFF”.


Edit: Also, thanks for all the data! Great summary!!!

Appreciate it! I’m not big on typing out long posts/threads, that’s the main reason I didn’t start a build thread. :rolleyes:

Figured this was worth putting the time and effort in though as I’ve had several folks ask about it or mention it to me.
 
Great write up and it follows my sympathies exactly! I trust “auto testers” to inform me but not make decisions! Great job of keeping the club informed!

Appreciate it brother!

I should probably do a little write up on the ReefBot too, eventually...
 
I use my APex/Trident to just give me information. I don't allow the system to dose anything other than my scheduled alk/calc/mag for now. I've got a calcium reactor I'll get up and going soonish, but I still wouldn't allow Apex to make those decisions for me.

As it stands I haven't manually tested anything in months. I have a few canary corals that tell me if something is wrong. But since I've gotten this frag tank up and running - basically start of quarantine - I haven't tested. I can look and see if something is wrong. If Apex throws me wild numbers I calibrate it and test again. That's happened once, honestly.
 
I can't trust the trident-controlled dosing. I use a calrx now but I tried the controlled dosing for a little while and it worked but its all dependent on the reading. I had to clean the vial on my trident twice now. The readings would fluctuate but after cleaning it's been very accurate. There are many others having the issue with high mg/cal numbers when the reagent goes down. I found these through R2R. I wasn't having this issue but got a kit just in case.
 
I found these through R2R.

I ordered some 3D printed Apex module mount tabs from a guy on eBay and saw those funnels on his page. I didn’t realize that’s what they were for, might have to give them a shot.
 
Thanks for the question and excellent right up @bigd

I've always said that if a test result comes back out of line to test again. If those results come back out of whack test a 3rd time using a different test kit. Only then, after verifying the results do you take corrective dosing measures. I don't see how this is any different, it's just another test kit, just automated and using optical sensors instead of human eyes. It's not infallible to error.

My concern about the Trident from day one has been the oxidizing of the reagents.
Has Neptune said anything about those two tests when the reagents gets low?

The only thing I might allow the system to do is make a minor Alk adjustment of no more than 5% of the target value. If not reached an alarm trigger should be tripped and all other dosing stopped. And I'd only try that after months of use and seeing how the system reacts to those changes and corroborating them with ICP testing. All other dosing changes would need to be backed up with reliable tests. Beyond that the only way I'd let a system take over a major dosing decision is if two separate automatic testing systems agreed. Got a feeling were going to be a ways from that happening and being affordable.
 
NEVER!

that's too much money/risk to put your trust into one single company.

i have told my stories to several people and i walk down memory lane again as to why i got a Trident.

This past winter, i have been adjusting my calcium reactor based on my hanna alk checker reading. For whatever reason, i couldn't raise my alk beyond 8 despite the fact that i have increased my effluent and/or decreased my ph setting on the controller. I came to find out that my hanna reagent was bad. my alk was at 20dkh when i borrowed @bhodges82 's checker.

earlier this year i had a scheduled 2-week biz trip to india. right before i left, i did my due diligence by checking all the parameters of my tank. my alk reading this time was at 5-6dkh. Upon checking, i realized that i forgot to turn on my calcium reactor when i swapped an Eb8 for an EB832 two weeks prior. I found out about this 3 days before I needed to head out.

After i came back I pulled the trigger on the Trident since i already own the "newer" apex (otherwise i would've consider other auto testers)

I have not relied on Trident for maintaining my alk/cal/mg nor will i ever do so. Trident is only there to provide me with some readings +/- error in measurement. As long as my number don't drop precipitously I'm a happy camper.
 
Without a 2nd layer/redundant control that independently measures parameters, you must be kidding!

For me, options must include either-

-limit the rate of change possible, enough to ensure any overshoot is not lethal, or

-include a 2nd layer of control, with failsafe oversight capability

I would prefer the 2nd option, but find that prohibitively expensive with available technology.
 
Is neptune on the hook for when all my stuff dies? If so then I'm in, but we know that won't happen. I'll keep doing it myself because it works and I like it, I didn't get in to this hobby because it was easy, I'm attracted to the work it requires.
 
I had issues with my trident giving false readings when the reagents got down to around 10%. I found the fix on R2R in the form of reagent guides. Not only do these guides stop the false readings, they allow the Trident to use almost all of the reagent! I purchased a set of three from the OP in this thread:

I still test the big three weekly manually!
 
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