Xenia Fuge

kirkwood

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I stumbled onto a thread on RC about a guy using an elongata xenia fuge... It was definitely a cool looking refugium.. Basically a 30 gallon tank with pumping xenia covering all the glass.. Lots of movement.. Obviously for the vast majority of SPSers The risk of just one piece of xenia getting into your DT is not worth the risk.. But I am intrigued with the idea of a low $ nutrient export (well its more nutrient storage and not export until you actually physically remove the xenia from the tank)..

<div class="gc_ifarem_title">Xenia Refugium - YouTube</div><iframe style="width: 70%; height: 400px; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/BKfhOu2GBaA"></iframe>
 
You know, the thing about that idea that bothers me is that the xenia is just another coral in your system. Any nutrients it pulls from the water are going to be released as nitrogenous waste, and all the while the Xenia is releasing chemicals, alleles, and every other product of respiration soft corals do.

I just don't see how this contributes to nutrient export period, given all the stuff the Xenia is putting back into the water just by living? I'd love to know how this actually does contribute to lowering organics in a reef system by having an animal do it?

I understand the use of macroalgae for nutrient export, but not this.
 
Dave,

Do you have any links you'd recommend for educating a bit on nutrient export? I'm looking at trying to enhance my nutrient biological nutrient export but need to learn a bit more before I do so.

It sounds to me like the Xenia may work more like a skimmer where it takes up nutrients before they can breakdown and convert to nitrates and phosphates... in that sense I agree that its useless...

i do however think it would be great for a FOWLR...
 
Kirkwood;926247 wrote: Dave,

Do you have any links you'd recommend for educating a bit on nutrient export? I'm looking at trying to enhance my nutrient biological nutrient export but need to learn a bit more before I do so.

It sounds to me like the Xenia may work more like a skimmer where it takes up nutrients before they can breakdown and convert to nitrates and phosphates... in that sense I agree that its useless...

i do however think it would be great for a FOWLR...

Not any links, but if the term "biological nutrient export" mean nutrient export via either plant, animal or bacteria type activity, I can help a bit.

Before you do anything, consider what type system you have. I have a 465 gallon SPS system, and a 100 gallon mixed LPS/Softy reef. I am nowhere near as anal about keeping the water clean in my mixed reef as I am in my 465 because my LPS and soft corals like more turbid water, so I go longer before changing our GFO or carbon, and I go really long before rinsing out filter socks, and I use a higher micron (larger opening) filter sock in my 100 than I do in the 465 as well. I also do fewer water changes in this system as well, all because I don't need to.

So, in some ways, you should try to match your nutrient export methods to the type corals you have, if you see what I mean?

And the following is just my experience and opinions, so they are not necessarily correct or incorrect.

Animal nutrient export like the Xenia fuge you posted is not export IMO. It is like using a turbo snail for hair algae on your rock. The hair algae, if it could be harvested, and removed from the system, would be nutrient export, but a sea hare or a Turbo snail eating it is just conversion into nitrogenous waste products that are still in your system and have to be dealt with one way or another.

Do not confuse nutrient conversion with nutrient export. There is a difference.

Many folks use macroalgae, like cheato, to uptake excess nutrients, then they harvest it and pull it from the system. Some folks use an Algae Turf Scrubber, or ATS, in the same way they would use Cheato, but an ATS is a bit more involved with plumbing and lighting involved, with the algae growing on a lighted plastic mesh type material and needing regular scraping, whereas the cheato would basically sit in a refugium type tank setup or by itself with water in/out and a light over it. Cheato is probably easier to maintain, whereas I am guessing an ATS might pull more stuff from the water in the same amount of time, while itself being higher maintenance because of the way it is set up.

I used an ATS for a while and abandoned it because my water clarity suffered some. Not terribly, but enough for me to not use it any more because cloudy water means less PAR getting to my SPS. You can find enough info an ATS systems on Reef Central to make you sick if you do a search on there. Just watch out for those Gurus on there that tell you at ATS eliminates the need or a protein skimmer. IMO, cheato or an ATS is just another of a multi-prong approach to nutrient export.

And bacteriological nutrient export is done basically for nitrates, like using Matrix or one of the several types of denitrators you can set up, which is not to be confused with regular aerobic bacterial activity on your LR that converts ammonia to nitrites to nitrates (nutrient conversion, not export). I use a sulfur denitrator in my 465, which uses an ultra slow flow of water through sulfur media, which becomes oxygen depleted. Not totally without O2, but enough that anaerobic bacteria start to grow, and they consume the nitrate and turn it into nitrogen gas, which bubbles off and is exported that way. In material like Matrix, the bacteria grow deep in the structure where the O2 level is low, and that removes nitrates from water as well.

Then, outside of biological nutrient export, there is chemical and mechanical nutrient export, which is covered by GFO, GAC, mechanical filtration, protein skimming, water changes and probably some other things I have not mentioned.
 
Adam iv seen your system and if it was me I'd look at carbon doseing , once you work the dose up your skimmer will start kicking out mad muck .
I couldn't get my nitrate under 10ish now they never get over 5 I also run some gfo and the little p04 in the system also has dropped even lower than with gfo alone its average 0.003
I have a heavily stocked tank with fish and coral . Carbon doseing made keeping acros possible for me , before the nitrate slowed growth down considerably.
I know you have good growth as it is but if your wanting a LNS consider having a drink with your fishy friends.
There is so much literature on doseing you will have no problem answering any questions


If you wanted to discuss it call me and I can share some Jedi training
 
Thanks for the comments. I am keeping a mixed reef now with a bit of everything from acros and millies to zoas, chalice, pectinia, and euphillia. I am successful with what i'd consider easier SPS like slimer, valida, montis, digis, stylos, BN, and pocilli, but hit or miss with other SPS and not much luck with millies on a whole. I employ a relatively small amount of chaeto in my sump as a fuge - small in the sense that my 120 would benefit from a much bigger fuge. I also have 1 gallon of matrix in my sump that I added 3 months ago so I believe that should now be maturing to the point where it will provide some benefit.

I have an ELOS Nitrate test kit and Hannah phosphate checker coming in the mail this week. I have an API nitrate test that has always given me a 0 reading but the kit is old and I have more faith in ELOS's accuracy. And my research showed that Hannah was the best low range phosphate checker on the market for the money. Once I get my readings I will see what I need to do. I took my GFO offline about 6 weeks ago so I want to test my phosphate and then bring the GFO back online to actually see how much it will pull from the system.

I have never attempted carbon dosing and actually never really considered it.

Dave that is a great summary about the nutrient export/conversion. I think the point with the Xenia is that if you ran it in a fuge that you would harvest it the same way you harvest your macro. So the Xenia would convert and store the nutrients and then they would be exported when you physically removed them from the system. I think that from a viewability/display factor that a xenia fuge is really cool and something to show off, wheres a macro fuge isn't very pretty and more like something you'd hide... But as you alluded to in an earlier post, what effect is the xenia having on the other corals in the system just by living. One thing I'd say is that I wouldn't want to be in the room the day the xenia is harvested, because we all know how much that stuff stinks...
 
Kirkwood;926349 wrote:
Dave that is a great summary about the nutrient export/conversion. I think the point with the Xenia is that if you ran it in a fuge that you would harvest it the same way you harvest your macro. So the Xenia would convert and store the nutrients and then they would be exported when you physically removed them from the system. I think that from a viewability/display factor that a xenia fuge is really cool and something to show off, wheres a macro fuge isn't very pretty and more like something you'd hide... But as you alluded to in an earlier post, what effect is the xenia having on the other corals in the system just by living. One thing I'd say is that I wouldn't want to be in the room the day the xenia is harvested, because we all know how much that stuff stinks...

A plant macroalgae would have the beneficial effects without the secretions using an animal like Xenia would. Cheato doesn't secrete nitrogenous waste, slime coat, alleles, and whatever else Xenia would. More efficient.
 
Acroholic;926352 wrote: A plant macroalgae would have the beneficial effects without the secretions using an animal like Xenia would. Cheato doesn't secrete nitrogenous waste, slime coat, alleles, and whatever else Xenia would. More efficient.

What do you mean when you say secrete alleles?
 
Question - if you have an emerald crab in a fuge with chaeto - the chaeto consumes phosphates as it grows and then you would remove clumps of chaeto from your fuge to complete the nutrient export process?? So if you have an emerald in your fuge that is eating the chaeto, would the emerald be releasing it back into the tank in the form of waste?
 
Rodasphoto;926414 wrote: What do you mean when you say secrete alleles?

From Wikki:

Allelopathy is a biological phenomenon by which an organism produces one or more biochemicals that influence the growth, survival, and reproduction of other organisms. These biochemicals are known as allelochemicals and can have beneficial (positive allelopathy) or detrimental (negative allelopathy) effects on the target organisms. Allelochemicals are a subset of secondary metabolites,[1] which are not required for metabolism (i.e. growth, development and reproduction) of the allelopathic organism. Allelochemicals with negative allelopathic effects are an important part of plant defense against herbivory.[1][2]
Allelopathy is characteristic of certain plants, algae, bacteria, coral, and fungi. Allelopathic interactions are an important factor in determining species distribution and abundance within plant communities, and are also thought to be important in the success of many invasive plants.

Here is a reference to an online article regarding it as well.

a>
 
Kirkwood;926467 wrote: So if you have an emerald in your fuge that is eating the chaeto, would the emerald be releasing it back into the tank in the form of waste?

If the animal poops, pees or respires, it has a nutrient impact.

In your scenario, the crab wouldn't necessary be releasing exact same NO3 or PO4 as was bound in chaeto, but it does produce waste.
 
McPhock;926521 wrote: If the animal poops, pees or respires, it has a nutrient impact.

In your scenario, the crab wouldn't necessary be releasing exact same NO3 or PO4 as was bound in chaeto, but it does produce waste.

This^. Any animal that eats the cheato might use some of the NO3 or PO4 in its own bodily processes, so what it releases as waste isn't exactly what I eats. Just like any animal, it will digest what it needs and excrete the rest.
 
Acroholic;926512 wrote: From Wikki:

Allelopathy is a biological phenomenon by which an organism produces one or more biochemicals that influence the growth, survival, and reproduction of other organisms. These biochemicals are known as allelochemicals and can have beneficial (positive allelopathy) or detrimental (negative allelopathy) effects on the target organisms. Allelochemicals are a subset of secondary metabolites,[1] which are not required for metabolism (i.e. growth, development and reproduction) of the allelopathic organism. Allelochemicals with negative allelopathic effects are an important part of plant defense against herbivory.[1][2]
Allelopathy is characteristic of certain plants, algae, bacteria, coral, and fungi. Allelopathic interactions are an important factor in determining species distribution and abundance within plant communities, and are also thought to be important in the success of many invasive plants.

Here is a reference to an online article regarding it as well.

http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/121/m121p191.pdf">http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/121/m121p191.pdf</a>[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the in depth reply. I learned something new today and look forward to sharing this new knowledge with my students. I thought you were referring to one of two or more alternative forms of a gene that arise by mutation and are found at the same place on a chromosome.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
 
Rodasphoto;926830 wrote: Thanks for the in depth reply. I learned something new today and look forward to sharing this new knowledge with my students. I thought you were referring to one of two or more alternative forms of a gene that arise by mutation and are found at the same place on a chromosome.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

I should have used the term "allelopathic chemicals" or "allelochemicals." "Allele" was an incorrect term for my reference. Your definition is the correct one. Sorry for the confusion.
 
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