All for reef questions

[Eric_n_Ga]

I have been using All for reef for a year or so in the 29gal. When I made the switch to the 75gal I figured I'd be dosing more . Right now I'm only dosing 2.5 ml a day split into 3 servings . Keeping the calcium at like 440. All at 7.8 if I remember from the other day .

My question is does that seem like a low amount . I was only dosing 2ml a day in the 29.

Tank is mainly lps ,zoas , and a hand full of small sps frags .

Am I just thinking too much ,like if it ain't broke don't fix it ?

 

[kullas]

If you skip a day how much does the alk drop?

 

[dball711]

You may be thinking too much. It’s not a lot but sounds like your consumption is pretty small. If anything I think the ALK might be a tad low. Maybe bump it to 2.75 daily and see if the ALK moves to 8.

Note that consumption is based on sticking not tank volume.

 

[Adam]

Based on your coral stock it doesn't sound like you have a lot of calcification going on. Do you notice any growth?

I would bump up your Alk with baking soda mixed with rodi. Try to get it to 8.5 using BRS's or Marine Depot's calculators. Doing so should drop the Cal some as well, maybe a 5 to 10 point drop. Then don't dose anything for a day and test both again 24hrs later and note the drop. This will tell you the demand.

Once that's done manually does it back up with the AFR and resume the normal dosing based on the demand result you got. If things stay at 8.5 Alk & 430ish Cal your doing the right amount.

 

[ichthyoid]

As others have said, you need to balance the ratio by raising alk.

If your pH is lower than you would like, adjust using sodium carbonate, which will raise both pH & alk.

If your pH is about right, then use the sodium bicarbonate to raise just alkalinity.

You could end up using both for final tweaking.

Fwiw,
As I recall, when beginning All for Reef you should first adjust cal/alk to desired levels, then begin dosing it. I guess newer tanks may still consume greater alk, even when using the All for Reef?

 

[ZapataInc]

As others have said, you need to balance the ratio by raising alk.

If your pH is lower than you would like, adjust using sodium carbonate, which will raise both pH & alk.

If your pH is about right, then use the sodium bicarbonate to raise just alkalinity.

You could end up using both for final tweaking.

Fwiw,
As I recall, when beginning All for Reef you should first adjust cal/alk to desired levels, then begin dosing it. I guess newer tanks may still consume greater alk, even when using the All for Reef?

Not to hi-jack this thread....But what would be a good ratio of Alk to Cal....My pH stay around 8-8.1. @Adam too

 

[Eric_n_Ga]

Ok going to make some adjustments and do some daily testing . Will report back

 

[sharis100]

You need to look at the All for reef dosing calculator to determine your start dosage. https://www.tropic-marin-smartinfo.com/en/minerals/all-for-reef.html
All for reef only works if you are dosing the correct quantities, otherwise you are wasting money with this Product according to Tropic Marin. Once you start at the proper levels, then measure your parameters to see if you need to increase. Tropic Marin recommends your start point is 14.19ml daily.

 

[Eric_n_Ga]

I looked at that dosage. This was a new tank , cycled , no fish no coral , all new salt and post final water change my calcium 410 and alk 8.5 were good , dumping almost 70ml would have shot everything through the roof ? Or am I missing something

 

[sharis100]

I looked at that dosage. This was a new tank , cycled , no fish no coral , all new salt and post final water change my calcium 410 and alk 8.5 were good , dumping almost 70ml would have shot everything through the roof ? Or am I missing something

If you have no coral and nothing pulling alkalinity, then don’t start dosing until needed. Once you have added corals and your alkalinity falls below salt mixing levels- depends on your salt brand- then you know you need to dose and you need to follow Tropic Marin calculator or the dilution factor would be too great to make a difference for you and would be a waste or wash. Also, for all for reef it is a balance of Mag Cal and trace elements in addition to Alkalinity. If you have no coralline, no CUC and no corals, there would be no need for dosing. But if you have corals, CUC, coralline etc and your alkalinity is falling below what your water changes can fix for you, follow the dosing levels Tropic Marin recommends or your levels will be off. What is you Mag? Cal? Alkalinity? With no all for reef additions and is your water changes bringing it where you want it to be or do you need the all for reef? All for reef also has a tendency to run high on cal and mag to get the alkalinity above 8.0

 

[ichthyoid]

The label instructions agree closely with the calculator, which is a convenient method for converting dosage of All for Reef.

At 5 ml per 25 gallons (~19 liters) of actual tank volume the calculator yields 14.19. Most graduated cylinders can’t provide two decimals of accuracy, so rounding up from 14.19 to 15 ml would be acceptable, imo.

Without a significant source of nitrogen, phosphorous and other minerals & elements needed for life, it’s difficult to see how the All for Reef would be successful long term.

The 70 ml in the calculator is a maximum suggested amount to use for the 75 gallons and would be representative of that sized tank loaded with healthy/rapidly growing Acropora types of corals, or perhaps giant clams

All for Reef contains calcium formate (from the CarboCalcium product portion). This is calcium attached to what is known as an organic ligand (the formate). Bacteria known as methanogens consume the formate as food and release the calcium in ionic form, which can then be used by corals, corraline algae & other organisms. The reaction by the bacteria also liberates alkalinity in the process, in a stoichiometrically* balanced amount so calcium to alkalinity stays in balance. This only works if it was that way to begin with, or consumption is in balance. As many of us know, alkalinity is usually used at a greater rate in new aquariums than calcium is. Once it’s been running a while, the two will usually stay balanced.

*Stoichiometry is a term in chemistry which refers to the relationship between quantities of different materials in chemical reactions.

 

[ichthyoid]

Typically, a product like All for Reef or carbon dosing relies on inputs of nutrients from fish, such as the nitrogen, phosphorous, etc.

The OP mentions having no fish. Is that still the case?

I’m assuming you added ammonium at the beginning to help cycle, yes?

 

[sharis100]

Typically, a product like All for Reef or carbon dosing relies on inputs of nutrients from fish, such as the nitrogen, phosphorous, etc.

The OP mentions having no fish. Is that still the case?

I’m assuming you added ammonium at the beginning to help cycle, yes?

Confused since the OP said he went from 29 gallons to 75 gallons and mentions the corals he has in the tank. Then he said he the tank was new with no corals . In any case, I agree with you.

 

[ichthyoid]

"...
Without a significant source of nitrogen, phosphorous and other minerals & elements needed for life, it’s difficult to see how the All for Reef would be successful long term.
..."

The and other minerals & elements are provided by the All for Reef. Please pardon the oversight.

What is clear, is that a consistent supply of nitrogen and some phosphorous are required for long term success.

@sharis100 also makes a good point about All for Reef not being appropriate, unless consumption of calcium & alkalinity exceeds what can be provided through water changes.

 

[ZapataInc]

Not to hi-jack this thread....But what would be a good ratio of Alk to Cal....My pH stay around 8-8.1. @Adam too

Anyone? @Adam @ichthyoid ?

 

[Adam]

In regards to the initial post. Going up from 29 to 75 gallons won't equal the need to dose more until more encrusting corals are added in addition to coraline starting to grow more and any CUC that have shells and grow. Weekly water changes should be suffice until that time. New systems generally consume more Alk as they establish bacteria everywhere in the system, this can take several months after the initial cycle.

Like Bill said there are a variety of ways to raise Alk. These are listed by their effect on pH.
Sodium Hydroxide (Lye) Highest pH impact!
Sodium carbonate (Soda Ash) High pH impact.
Sodium Bicarbonate (Baking Soda) Lower ph impact.

I like using baking soda to do most of my Alk adjustments because it's a better buffer, it's also less prone to precipitation. When adjusting Alk precip is a huge concern, even more so in a newer system when things are still finding their balance or if Mag gets low. Finding this balance and dosing correctly is one of the hardest parts for new aquarists to learn, there's just so many pit falls. You can read everything out there and still mess up. For me, experience was the best teacher. The best thing to remember is the higher the pH impact of the additive the higher the risk of precipitation. (Disclamer, that last statement is purely based on my anecdotal experience. I don't recall reading it anywhere.) Here is a good article on precipitation.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/rhf/index.php#6

Not to hi-jack this thread....But what would be a good ratio of Alk to Cal....My pH stay around 8-8.1. @Adam too

Don't think this hi-jacks the thread. Important info that relates. Brett and a couple other experienced members told me that when you reach ionic balance of Alk & Cal many other problems go away. Again, anecdotal, but it held true for me.

The results from this calculator is what I strive for.

Reef Chemistry Calculator

 

[ichthyoid]

IMO, if you really want to understand All for Reef specifically, which is a bacterial based method for controlling reef chemistry, I suggest watching this video. Maybe a couple of times.
The product differs in how you might traditionally think about reef chemistry & dosing.
For instance, just looking at the ingredients one does not immediately recognize the source of alkalinity. This is because it is the result of bacterially driven redox reactions.
In inorganic chemistry, we become used to thinking that: Reactants A + B = Products C + D. It's sort of linear.
When bacteria get involved, they generally bring along (produce) more reactants, factors & conditions to the table, which is the case with All for Reef.
The speaker is Lou Ekus-VP Tropic Marin USA

This video is what sold me on the product-

 

[Adam]

IMO, if you really want to understand All for Reef specifically, which is a bacterial based method for controlling reef chemistry, I suggest watching this video. Maybe a couple of times.
The product differs in how you might traditionally think about reef chemistry & dosing.
For instance, just looking at the ingredients one does not immediately recognize the source of alkalinity. This is because it is the result of bacterially driven redox reactions.
In inorganic chemistry, we become used to thinking that: Reactants A + B = Products C + D. It's sort of linear.
When bacteria get involved, they generally bring along (produce) more reactants, factors & conditions to the table, which is the case with All for Reef.
The speaker is Lou Ekus-VP Tropic Marin USA

This video is what sold me on the product-

I haven't used the product. I will watch the video, a few times . I don't have anything up and running right now and even after I do it will be several months before I'll need to do any dosing. But when I'm ready I don't think this product will be cost effective for me. Just the initial dosing per TM's instructions would be about 105ml a day That's $33 every 9.5 days to start!

 

[sharis100]

I haven't used the product. I will watch the video, a few times . I don't have anything up and running right now and even after I do it will be several months before I'll need to do any dosing. But when I'm ready I don't think this product will be cost effective for me. Just the initial dosing per TM's instructions would be about 105ml a day That's $33 every 9.5 days to start!

So the cheapest way to do All for Reef is the DIY method- look on BRS website and reef2reef posting for how to do. Still expensive but less so using this method- and it is easy. Also, I found that you have to be on top of your bacterial populations to get the most benefit out of All for Reef. Prime when starting and water changes, and other bacterial sources to keep population up and diverse. KZ sells good bacterial strains that work well with this sort of system.

 

[Adam]

So the cheapest way to do All for Reef is the DIY method- look on BRS website and reef2reef posting for how to do. Still expensive but less so using this method- and it is easy. Also, I found that you have to be on top of your bacterial populations to get the most benefit out of All for Reef. Prime when starting and water changes, and other bacterial sources to keep population up and diverse. KZ sells good bacterial strains that work well with this sort of system.

To be honest I'm going to be looking for simplicity and not maintaining & dosing of three different containers. The display system is going to be over 600 gallons, probably over 700 total volume. The frag system will be about 300 gallons. Plus running several QT systems...

I'll look into it. To be honest if I was going to start up something that was under 300 gallons I'd probably go that direction. I'm going to stick with Kalk for as much as possible and run a CARX to fill in the void. This is what I was doing prior to shutting down.

The Kalk / Calc Combo Method

By Bruce York I developed the Kalk / Calc Combo Method of maintaining stable water parameters in my reef aquarium over a 6 year period from 2008 to 2014. At

reefs.com