All for reef questions

[ichthyoid]

Fwiw,
All for Reef is a one part dosing method.
Even with the DIY version at 1/2 price, you would be looking at ~$50/mo.

If it were me, I’d probably just go with a calcium reactor, possibly plus a kalk doser.

With All for Reef, I can make calcium formate (their CarbCalcium product) pretty cheaply. It’s the A- & K+ components that would be costly. Magnesium use is too low to be worth a diy.

 

[Eric_n_Ga]

You guys are a wealth of knowledge .

So to clear a few things up ,( sorry I was at work ) I had a 29gal set up for a yr or more . Loaded with corals and fish , when my calcium and all started to drop from being used I started dosing all for reef . Everything was perfect for months no issue steady numbers on calc and alk , corals happy and growing.

Bought a 75, 90 day cycle with dry rock, basically the brs cycle . Added my tomini tang ,clowns, watchman goby on day 70, turned lights on on day 90. Waited 2 weeks did a water change , tested water parameters all good . Added the corals from the 29 (still dosing all for reef) ..like 40 or 50 frags . Mainly lps and zoas , but a hand full of sps . As well as added a small mixed clean up crew . Tested water after a week everything was low , swapped the doser pump over didn't change anything on volume and kept on my normal water change schedule . Been a few weeks now and Ive adjusted the dose up and up like a 1ml a day per week ,as I don't want to screw this up now. Baby steps . Now my calc is high and all is low ..hmmm like 500 and 7.8

After reading these comments I understand more why .

Basically you need to saturate the system like a loading dose and then maintain the numbers you want while adjusting for usage .

So , sorry this is so long . Now the tank is slap full of more fish and corals . Refugium is absorbing all the nutrients and growing algae like crazy . Do I just follow the 14 point What ever dosage recommendation and add that over the next few days and monitor all levels or is that going to freak everything out ? It's all very happy btw

 

[sharis100]

You guys are a wealth of knowledge .

So to clear a few things up ,( sorry I was at work ) I had a 29gal set up for a yr or more . Loaded with corals and fish , when my calcium and all started to drop from being used I started dosing all for reef . Everything was perfect for months no issue steady numbers on calc and alk , corals happy and growing.

Bought a 75, 90 day cycle with dry rock, basically the brs cycle . Added my tomini tang ,clowns, watchman goby on day 70, turned lights on on day 90. Waited 2 weeks did a water change , tested water parameters all good . Added the corals from the 29 (still dosing all for reef) ..like 40 or 50 frags . Mainly lps and zoas , but a hand full of sps . As well as added a small mixed clean up crew . Tested water after a week everything was low , swapped the doser pump over didn't change anything on volume and kept on my normal water change schedule . Been a few weeks now and Ive adjusted the dose up and up like a 1ml a day per week ,as I don't want to screw this up now. Baby steps . Now my calc is high and all is low ..hmmm like 500 and 7.8

After reading these comments I understand more why .

Basically you need to saturate the system like a loading dose and then maintain the numbers you want while adjusting for usage .

So , sorry this is so long . Now the tank is slap full of more fish and corals . Refugium is absorbing all the nutrients and growing algae like crazy . Do I just follow the 14 point What ever dosage recommendation and add that over the next few days and monitor all levels or is that going to freak everything out ? It's all very happy btw

I would get all you levels before dosing. See what your goals are and then start at the lowest recommended dose on their calculator and measure again. And slowly bring it to wear you want to be, making sure nothing reacts poorly as you go. If you go slowly and steadily from the start dose everything should go smoothly.

 

[Adam]

@Eric_n_Ga No you don't want to do a loading dose per se, if you raise the Alk too quick you can start precipitation. If that happens it kinda goes runaway until you can get it to stop, by not dosing anything for several days to a week. Most places say not to raise Alk by more than 1.4dkh a day. With a new system I'd halve that, 0.7dkh/day, so you don't start preciping.

This is what I would do.
Stop dosing till at least Tuesday 7/7, longer if the Cal is still high at that time.
Make a couple of large water changes 30% to 50%. Do like one a today and one tomorrow. This will help re-balance the system. It would also be a good idea to cut the photo period on the fuge to 4-6hrs per day till Monday or Tuesday. Those water changes will lower your nutrients a good bit.
Wait till Saturday to test Alk so the system has time to stabilize. It should have rebounded some but the Cal may still be a little high but I would even test that till Sunday.
Now is the time to adjust the Alk if it needs it. First double check the Mag and make sure it's in line. Then figure out how much you need to dose to get to your target, be it 8 or 8.5dkh, without exceeding a 0.7dkh rise. Splitting the dose in two a couple hours apart. Add the dose to a very high flow area of the tank.
If you needed to make an adjustment to the Alk test the Cal the next day, it will have dropped some. But if it's still above 425 don't start dosing All for Reef until it drops to that or lower. Ionic balance of Cal with an Alk dkh of 8.5 is 421.
Now I'm guessing Cal will still be a little high. So you'll need to do Alk only dosing daily or via a doser until you it get back in line. Just be careful not to raise it too much at one time.

I think the system is still to new to require a balanced dosing program as it will continue to use more Alk than Cal for a while, which means the Alk will drop and Cal will start rising again. Start your AFR dosing back at the same level as you had on the 29 and keep an eye on those two and make Alk adjustments as need to correct the imbalance. If Cal keeps rising even when doing that you'll need to stop the AFR again then lower the dose after it drops back down. On the other hand if the Cal starts dropping you'll need to increase the AFR dose.

It's going to be impossible to just dose AFR until the excess Alk demand levels off. You also can't base your AFR dose amount by that Alk demand because the Cal will start rising. The bacteria sucking up the Alk doesn't use any Cal. This definitely makes the situation more difficult but you will be able to work through it, at the cost of more frequent testing for a while. All in All I'd say you did everything right starting up the 75. This is just a variable where there isn't a work around. The system just needs to mature.

Keep us updated and if you run into any problems we'll be here to help.

 

[Eric_n_Ga]

Ok did 3 10 gallon water changes this week , alk is back to 8.5, calcium is 500 mag is 1300
Salinity 1.025 .( Was a little low before ) Still dosing 3ml of all for reef daily. Didn't want to start changing too many things until I got the water changes done .

So this tells me I can maintain the levels I want with more frequent water changes for now vs dosing . Give the tank time and when it tells me it wants more then....start dosing the AFR again ..

 

[Eric_n_Ga]

@Eric_n_Ga No you don't want to do a loading dose per se, if you raise the Alk too quick you can start precipitation. If that happens it kinda goes runaway until you can get it to stop, by not dosing anything for several days to a week. Most places say not to raise Alk by more than 1.4dkh a day. With a new system I'd halve that, 0.7dkh/day, so you don't start preciping.

This is what I would do.
Stop dosing till at least Tuesday 7/7, longer if the Cal is still high at that time.
Make a couple of large water changes 30% to 50%. Do like one a today and one tomorrow. This will help re-balance the system. It would also be a good idea to cut the photo period on the fuge to 4-6hrs per day till Monday or Tuesday. Those water changes will lower your nutrients a good bit.
Wait till Saturday to test Alk so the system has time to stabilize. It should have rebounded some but the Cal may still be a little high but I would even test that till Sunday.
Now is the time to adjust the Alk if it needs it. First double check the Mag and make sure it's in line. Then figure out how much you need to dose to get to your target, be it 8 or 8.5dkh, without exceeding a 0.7dkh rise. Splitting the dose in two a couple hours apart. Add the dose to a very high flow area of the tank.
If you needed to make an adjustment to the Alk test the Cal the next day, it will have dropped some. But if it's still above 425 don't start dosing All for Reef until it drops to that or lower. Ionic balance of Cal with an Alk dkh of 8.5 is 421.
Now I'm guessing Cal will still be a little high. So you'll need to do Alk only dosing daily or via a doser until you it get back in line. Just be careful not to raise it too much at one time.

I think the system is still to new to require a balanced dosing program as it will continue to use more Alk than Cal for a while, which means the Alk will drop and Cal will start rising again. Start your AFR dosing back at the same level as you had on the 29 and keep an eye on those two and make Alk adjustments as need to correc

It's going to be impossible to just dose AFR until the excess Alk demand levels off. You also can't base your AFR dose amount by that Alk demand because the Cal will start rising. The bacteria sucking up the Alk doesn't use any Cal. This definitely makes the situation more difficult but you will be able to work through it, at the cost of more frequent testing for a while. All in All I'd say you did everything right starting up the 75. This is just a variable where there isn't a work around. The system just needs to mature.

Keep us updated and if you run into any problems we'll be here to help.

This makes a lot of sense .

 

[ichthyoid]

Your calcium is 500?
What salt do you use?

 

[Eric_n_Ga]

Calcium is high from the all for reef still . Instant ocean Reef crystals .

 

[Adam]

Ok did 3 10 gallon water changes this week , alk is back to 8.5, calcium is 500 mag is 1300
Salinity 1.025 .( Was a little low before ) Still dosing 3ml of all for reef daily. Didn't want to start changing too many things until I got the water changes done .

So this tells me I can maintain the levels I want with more frequent water changes for now vs dosing . Give the tank time and when it tells me it wants more then....start dosing the AFR again ..

You need to raise the Mag to about 1400. With it at 1300 your going to risk precipitation. I would also stop the AFR dosing for some time, maybe up to a month or more. As your Alk drops use baking soda mixed with RODI to raise it. You can also use soda ash to raise the Alk. You can use calculators to figure out the dose. BRS, Marine Depot or the one I linked in this thread will get you the info you need to figure out your dose amount. Just watch how much it drops over a 24hr period and you'll know the daily consumption.

 

[ichthyoid]

With calcium that high (500), I concur.

 

[Adam]

@Eric_n_Ga I would also double, maybe triple, check your test results. Possibility even see if Hal & Holley would let you bring a sample by for them to test, I'm sure they'd be happy to do that and they're not that far from you.

Reef Crystals usually has higher Mag than 1300. Also with RC, when I was using it, I would see a Cal increase too. Not 500 but a 10-20 point bump. That is one of the many, many reasons I stopped using it. In the end you need to be sure you're getting correct test results and confirming that you are is never a bad thing. But getting inaccurate results and making adjustments based on them will lead to bad things.

 

[Eric_n_Ga]

Cut the all for reef , did another water change yesterday . Cal 440 , alk 8.5. sal 1.025 . Going to keep with the 5 gallon water change 2x a week program for now . I think I'll send off a sample in a few weeks for for analysis before adding anything to the system . Get a real set if numbers before I make any more adjustments