Copper-resistant Ich

[ActiveAngel]

So I have a really interesting case happening in my fish QT right now.

I purchased a Naso Tang over a month ago, and he has been in QT ever since. Around day 3, I noticed a spot of ich, no surprise there. And began cupramine (ionic copper) at 0.5ppm. With occasional water changes and re-dosing copper. Salinity is kept at 1.020 in my QT, and temp is 77. Small glass aquarium with PVC tubes, air pump, heater, and a small circ pump. Testing with Hanna Copper tester.

Naturally, his appetite diminished severely. I noticed that the ich went away and came back with it’s normal life cycle. So I increased and increased. Until I had cupramine at 1.2 ppm ionic copper and now it’s been about a month. Fortunately his appetite came back and he is beefing up, but the ich is slightly worse.

So after some research and with Christmas break approaching, I want to get him off of copper before I leave on the 23rd (not likely). I decided to switch to CopperSafe (chelated copper) as well as Tank Transfer Method (TTM) with 2-3 day intervals, using fresh display tank water as part of a bunch of small water changes from my 3 other tanks.

I set up two identical tanks, next to each other, and yesterday did the first transfer from Cupramine into Copper Safe. CopperSafe was dosed to 1.83ppm. Everyone was alive and well this morning. Visible cysts still on tang. We will see over the next few days how he holds up.

-side note-
CopperSafe was originally dosed at 1.11mL per gallon and reached 2.18ppm. I then diluted and retested at 1.83ppm before adding fish.

 

[ActiveAngel]

For now, I’ll probably wait 5 days and see how things develop. But what are y’all’s thoughts on using a water conditioner alongside copper?

I will investigate a little first. But my initial thoughts are that it may help the fish to develop a slightly better slime-coat, thereby making it more difficult for the ich to attach. However, I worry if it will neutralize the copper.

Also, many water conditioners (dechloronators) often tote “ammonia reducer” or “helps fish to build slime coat”. Are these effects caused by the same compounds? Or is each one a unique mix of compounds to achieve the solely goals that they advertise?

 

[bzb]

I used Prime with Copper Power with good results. With the gradual ramp up to 2ppm, I didn't experience any appetite suppression with my fish.

Kole tang, two clowns, and chromis survived QT in ~2.0ppm Copper Power (along with Metro and Prazi doses) for 30 days with Prime being my primary method to reduce ammonia while I was traveling for work. My wife and kids done did good.

CBB died during QT, but unknown what was wrong with that one. He was eating and swimming quite well... ended up stuck to the (very low flow) powerhead one day.

 

[ActiveAngel]

Been doing TTM on the fish, gradually increasing the copper each dose. Currently up to 2.89ppm

While he is continuing the eat more and fatten up, the ich still looks terrible. I’m shocked that it hasn’t improved. Are my eyes deceiving me? Let me know if this looks like something else besides ich... something that copper would apparently have no effect on.

 

[Adam]

It's really hard to see the spots in the pic, they're there obviously, but blurry. The ones just down from the eyes are in best focus but it's hard to tell if it's odd shaped spots or more than one cyst. I also can't tell if it looks like Velvet from the pic either. Tank transfer doesn't work with Velvet which is leading me to lean that way.
Have you tried a freshwater dip and inspect what falls off?

Another thing you can do is feed Metro & Focus. If it's Ich they'll fall off in one day or less. I don't know if velvet falls off as fast or not but it is supposed to work on it as well. Metro is safe to use with chealted copper.

TANK TERROR: Identifying And Treating Marine Velvet

The reef aquarium hobby is not for the faint of heart. Maintaining a complex ecosystem can be a daunting task with many variables in play that all have effect on one another. However, beyond the effort to maintain the ecosystem and address common...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Adam]

Here's another good thread.

BAD NEWS - Velvet Strain Survives 1.75 PPM Copper!

Breaking News: We believe we have discovered at least one strain of velvet that survives 1.75 PPM copper, we recommend increasing to 2.0PPM to eradicate it. @HotRocks and I have quarantined hundreds of fish over the past year and we've unfortunately learned a lot of hard lessons we can pass to...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Adam]

@ActiveAngel And here's one more.

Copper resistant ich strain?

Hi, I was shown a response to a fellow aquarists enquiry to Seachem. The response states that there are strains resistant to copper. I have not found any scientific data. Could the person at Seachem be wrong? I’ll attach the message.

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Suescuno]

Andrew, you can have my metroplex and my focus. I got them around May.

 

[ActiveAngel]

It's really hard to see the spots in the pic, they're there obviously, but blurry. The ones just down from the eyes are in best focus but it's hard to tell if it's odd shaped spots or more than one cyst. I also can't tell if it looks like Velvet from the pic either. Tank transfer doesn't work with Velvet which is leading me to lean that way.
Have you tried a freshwater dip and inspect what falls off?

Another thing you can do is feed Metro & Focus. If it's Ich they'll fall off in one day or less. I don't know if velvet falls off as fast or not but it is supposed to work on it as well. Metro is safe to use with chealted copper.

TANK TERROR: Identifying And Treating Marine Velvet

The reef aquarium hobby is not for the faint of heart. Maintaining a complex ecosystem can be a daunting task with many variables in play that all have effect on one another. However, beyond the effort to maintain the ecosystem and address common...

www.reef2reef.com

The cysts are separate, and there has never been the powdery coating that I’m used to with velvet, during the past 6 weeks at above therapeutic levels of copper. This is the worst it has been so far. I tried to photo the black nose to provide better contrast than the grey body. Shouldn’t well over a month at significantly above therapeutic copper levels help kill velvet (even if the 1-2 weeks of TTM haven’t helped)? Nonetheless, I’m inclined to agree with you as a possibility. And take new action.

He wasn’t eating the last few times I tried metro+focus. But I’ll try again. Thanks Luis @Suescuno; I think I’m actually out of Focus, so I’ll take you up on that tonight. And I haven’t done a freshwater dip, but I can do that too. It started as a singular cyst on the side of his body, but now has progressed that a freshwater dip may be useful.

 

[bzb]

Maybe add garlic in with the metro soaked food?

That’s crazy that copper isn’t knocking that out (if it’s ich), but if the cysts are remaining, maybe it’s something else internal.

 

[ActiveAngel]

@anit77 What are your thoughts on using Ich-x or similar product? I’ve QT’d and treated thousands of fish, but never used this... always preferring copper, Prazi, kanaplex, metro, and focus.

 

[bzb]

Perhaps a dip in Rally instead of freshwater, too.

 

[Adam]

The cysts are separate, and there has never been the powdery coating that I’m used to with velvet, during the past 6 weeks at above therapeutic levels of copper. This is the worst it has been so far. I tried to photo the black nose to provide better contrast than the grey body. Shouldn’t well over a month at significantly above therapeutic copper levels help kill velvet (even if the 1-2 weeks of TTM haven’t helped)? Nonetheless, I’m inclined to agree with you as a possibility. And take new action.

He wasn’t eating the last few times I tried metro+focus. But I’ll try again. Thanks Luis @Suescuno; I think I’m actually out of Focus, so I’ll take you up on that tonight. And I haven’t done a freshwater dip, but I can do that too. It started as a singular cyst on the side of his body, but now has progressed that a freshwater dip may be useful.

You said that for a while you we're at 1.83 which isn't much higher than 1.75 that the Velvet strain has survived. Based on what I've read today it's technically possible that the Ich has become resistant but TTM and 2.89 copper would kill it, hell, even velvet at that copper level. There have been some attempts to do TTM on Velvet using 36-48hr transfers but I haven't looked enough to see if it's successful. I do know 72hr doesn't work for that though. It's also not out of the realm of possibility that those are flukes.

Regardless of all that. Given the amount of time you've been treating I think it's time to change things up. You've got a couple options. If the fish wouldn't eat Metro/Focus treated food before there's no reason to believe it will now. Since you were doing TTM, I take it you have a couple tanks. I'd move the fish to another tank with no copper but keep the copper tank up and running just in case you need it, just drop the concentration some so it's not such a shock to the fish if you end up needing to move it back there. In the copperless tank treat the whole tank with Metro.

For the freashwater dip I'd add a little methylene blue or Ruby Reef Rally to the water. A little baking soda too to help with the pH.
The 1st post I linked above had good treatment advice further down. If you can get some really clear shots of the fish post them on R2R in the Fish Disease Forum calling out these guys. You'll get a pretty quick response from one of them.
@HotRocks
@4FordFamily
@Big G
@Brew12

 

[Adam]

That freshwater dip will be the most telling. Just be sure the water is well aerated and temp matched or just slightly higher than the water it's in.

I really hope you can figure this out! I hate losing fish and those are so cool.

 

[ActiveAngel]

That freshwater dip will be the most telling. Just be sure the water is well aerated and temp matched or just slightly higher than the water it's in.

I really hope you can figure this out! I hate losing fish and those are so cool.

Thanks brother.

I completely agree. It’s time to change things up. For those reading, I was actually doing 48 hour TTMs as a precaution.

but yeah, I’m going to start this and will keep y’all posted.

Yeah, it’s a beautiful Naso too. Brilliant colors that were too good to pass up at the LFS.

 

[Adam]

Thanks brother.

I completely agree. It’s time to change things up. For those reading, I was actually doing 48 hour TTMs as a precaution.

but yeah, I’m going to start this and will keep y’all posted.

Yeah, it’s a beautiful Naso too. Brilliant colors that were too good to pass up at the LFS.

You should be able to get some good quality pics of the fish while it's in the dip. If you post those along with whatever falls off on R2R you'll be able to identify what organism it is tonight. As I sit here and think I'd do that before changing the treatment up. Better to have a positive id so you know exactly what to do next.

One quick question though. Are you using a Hanna checker to verify the copper concentration?

 

[ActiveAngel]

Correct; Hanna checker all the way

 

[ActiveAngel]

Ok. Status update. Last night we did:

1) 5 min freshwater dip
2) diluted down the 3.07ppm copper (probably about 2.5ppm now) since it obviously isn’t working.
3) I’m diluting it to FOWLR salinity as well; currently at 1.015 SG
4) Soaked nori strips in Metro and Focus; and fed, dumping the metro food-soak water into QT as well

Freshwater dip- the fish crapped everywhere. Lol. No way to tell if anything came off. After 1 minute, I immediately moved him to a second pre-warmed freshwater bath. But he crapped in there too.

Tonight is the 48 hour mark for his TTM schedule. So while he is transferred I’ll take some new pics and get a closer look. However, he appears about the same, both last night and this morning.

Poor guy. He looks otherwise healthy, still I really hope he pulls through! Photos posted from last night.

 

[jbartell123]

Been doing TTM on the fish, gradually increasing the copper each dose. Currently up to 2.89ppm

While he is continuing the eat more and fatten up, the ich still looks terrible. I’m shocked that it hasn’t improved. Are my eyes deceiving me? Let me know if this looks like something else besides ich... something that copper would apparently have no effect on.

View attachment 15337

These parasites are invertebrates and are unable to tolerate low salinity even for a short period of time. What I have done in the past is given a fish like this a 5 minute freshwater bath with copper, which I don't think you used in the dip, and all the lesions fell off. It is not always going to be a permanent fix, but it gives the fish some relief.

 

[ActiveAngel]

These parasites are invertebrates and are unable to tolerate low salinity even for a short period of time. What I have done in the past is given a fish like this a 5 minute freshwater bath, and all the lesions fell off. It is not always going to be a permanent fix, but it gives the fish some relief. And saltwater fish can easily survive in freshwater for a short period. You may not even need 5 minutes. A minute may be enough to get them off the fish. But you have to catch the fish first...

Catching is no issue; I’ve even caught a couple dozen wrasses and dartfish in full reef systems using my hands. The trick is to be slow and gentle; don’t pose a threat to them. They call me... fish-whisperer.

Lol. Still, He was given a freshwater bath last night. Seemingly to no effect. But we will see upon closer inspection tonight during his scheduled TTM.