Discussion: Efficiency

[mojo]

Skriz;421276 wrote: I recently upgraded my main level A/C system to a larger high efficiency unit. It alone accomplished 2 things

Right there with you - our upstairs unit is getting replaced as I type with a 18-seer unit. I'm hoping those $700/mo electric bills in the summer will come down...


Do you have any pictures or other info on the system to blow outside air through the sump? I've had that idea for years with my old setup, but never really explored it. I don't think it'd be *that* hard, and even if efficiency dropped in summer due to the outside humidity, it's got to be more effective than a chiller...

 

[ichthyoid]

mojo;421301 wrote: Right there with you - our upstairs unit is getting replaced as I type with a 18-seer unit. I'm hoping those $700/mo electric bills in the summer will come down...


Do you have any pictures or other info on the system to blow outside air through the sump? I've had that idea for years with my old setup, but never really explored it. I don't think it'd be *that* hard, and even if efficiency dropped in summer due to the outside humidity, it's got to be more effective than a chiller...

Agreed. Same idea of heat/humidity outside in summer, inside in winter. When I do my re-build, I'm planning on doing this. One thing I'm very concerned with is outside air having chemical 'drift' in it. What I mean is, if a neighbor treats their lawn, I REALLY don't want any of that to get in the reef, for example. There are many posssibilities for this to happen. Years ago, I had a roomate spray a little bug spray in the house. It wiped out my inverts, but not the fish. I'm planning on using particulate/dust filters plus Activated Carbon to eliminate all possibilities for this sort of thing. This requires a carbon with different properties from what we use for water, to do correctly. The pores are smaller, essentially.

 

[ichthyoid]

I'm doing the high SEER upgrades too (started a thread in DIY earlier). I calculated about $200 a month average savings for a 3000 sq. foot house. It will pay for itself in a few years time. Plus, as Skriz has already seen, much better comfort. I'm going with air-coupled heat pumps which have been shown to handle humidity better than regular high efficiency A/C. Something we in 'the South' can all relate to. With big reefs in the home, this feature is a plus. 95% efficiency natural gas furnaces for 'back-up' to the heat pumps on really cold days. The tax credits are a plus+, and don't forget the 80+% return on investment++, by increasing the values of your homes!

BTW-I looked into Geothermal, but 'the juice wasn't worth the squeeze'! By that I mean the payback was much longer, and price was $$$$. I have plenty of yard to install one, it just didn't make sense vs air heat pump.

I am converting to all CFL or LED wherever possible.

Installed new high efficiency doors and windows this year.

I use all electronic ballasts/no magnetics. This usually gives 30-50+% savings on power.

 

[ichthyoid]

dawgdude;421399 wrote: I had the same happen a couple years ago in college when my roommate sprayed Febreeze antimicrobial. It wiped out a bunch of my SPS and I only figured out what was killing my SPS when I walk in and he was spraying half a freaking can in our apartment. I could have killed him.

Ouch! I finally got my roomie to split the cost of my inverts, but I was still pissed!

 

[cr500_af]

ichthyoid;421409 wrote:

BTW-I looked into Geothermal, but 'the juice wasn't worth the squeeze'! By that I mean the payback was much longer, and price was $$$$. I have plenty of yard to install one, it just didn't make sense vs air heat pump.

I did the same thing, but I was still gonna pull the trigger on it had I not been so close to going over my budget when I built. It would have meant some other cutbacks that my wife was not going to live in peace with!

 

[jason sartain]

Skriz;421284 wrote: I also changed a ton of the house light bulbs with cfl's. I know none of this makes the tank more efficient, but I figured pinching on one end affects the other, so it's good enough!

I love this!
Lets say you have 50 bulbs in your house,if you replace them all with 10 watt CFL bulbs and your power cost you say $.08 per Kw hour,then you could run every light 24-7 for only $28 per month and $350 for the entire year!!!
These are a great way to save money.

 

[smoothie]

jason sartain;421563 wrote: I love this!
Lets say you have 50 bulbs in your house,if you replace them all with 10 watt CFL bulbs and your power cost you say $.08 per Kw hour,then you could run every light 24-7 for only $28 per month and $350 for the entire year!!!
These are a great way to save money.

You can also wrap and put a timer on your hot water heater, get a programmable thermostat for the house, wash clothes and dishes at night or early in the morning when rates aren't as high

 

[ichthyoid]

There are also heat pumps for water heaters. There are two different kind that I have found. One is a retro-fit for existing water heaters, and there are recently introduced (this month) water heaters with heat pumps built into them (GE has them, for one). Below is a link describing what they do and how. FWIW-the blow out cold air after 'pumping' the heat into the water.

 

[dough]

Great Thread!

Here's what I've done:

Lights - I switched over to T5 last year. Although I miss the shimmer, I'm no long fighting heat issues in the tank during the summer. I didn't use a chiller but since my tank is in my home office with windows facing the SE, I would crank up the AC. This year a small fan helped disipate what little heat there was by moving the air around.

RO/DI Water - Last year I drilled a hole in the house and ran the dirty water line outside into the garden and yard. So, I was't just dumping water back into the sewer system.

Other - I took my CR off line and went with ATO system with kalk (Ms. Wages, thanks to Brandon). I've actaully been able to keep a more stable pH in the tank. There is some savings there.

I dumped my CL last year as well and went with an MP40 for water movement in conjunction with a small Tunze and sump return pump. I also programmed the Tunze to turn off during the night cycle.

Future - Again, minimal savings but looking for a more efficent skimmer with minimal wattage draw.

 

[grouper therapy]

cr500_af;421557 wrote: I did the same thing, but I was still gonna pull the trigger on it had I not been so close to going over my budget when I built. It would have meant some other cutbacks that my wife was not going to live in peace with!

I look in to it as well for the house but could not justify the difference in the $$$$$$ but I have seen some home owners using lakes and bodies of water for there heat sink and are experiencing huge savings since the cost is minus the well drilling .

 

[cr500_af]

grouper therapy;421587 wrote: I look in to it as well for the house but could not justify the difference in the $$$$$$ but I have seen some home owners using lakes and bodies of water for there heat sink and are experiencing huge savings since the cost is minus the well drilling .

I was going to use the "large coil in one huge hole" method, and do the digging myself. My EMC actually had a deal where they would pay for all the equipment plus installation, and you leased it for life at a set monthly fee, but they guaranteed savings larger than the cost. It also included lifetime work/replacement since it is their equipment, but I decided against that because at the time I was part way through installing the dual fuel system already, so I didn't think they'd want to pick up halfway through my work.

 

[oz]

I am re-wiring and re-plumbing my basement system and using the return to feed more items versus Mag pumps and powerheads. I am going from 41 things plugged in to 30, that should help a little.

Trying to use gravity to feed as many things as possible as well.

Going to raise my temp a bit in the summer and lower it a bit in the winter.

I'll reduce my MH lighting cycle a bit in the summer as well.

 

[skriz]

I never thought of adjusting the temp up and down depending on the season. That's so simple it's brilliant!

 

[mojo]

Skriz;421625 wrote: I never thought of adjusting the temp up and down depending on the season. That's so simple it's brilliant!

But is it actually helpful? If you keep your tank at, say, 77 in the winter, and 81 in the summer, and you're still trying to keep everything down by two degrees in each instance, are you really using less energy? I'm not sure I can explain my thinking. Lemme try with an example:

In winter, let's say I want to keep my tank at 77 degrees. If I don't have any cooling and let things run like normal, let's say it'd hit 90 degrees.

In summer, let's say I want to keep it at 81, and if I let things go, they might hit 95.

So.. in one instance I have to remove 90-77=13 degrees and in another, 14 degrees. Doesn't seem like I'd be saving a lot.


(I have no idea how hot my tank would get b/c I've never wanted to test; however, by looking at my Apex graphs, I see that my temps go from 77.7 to 79 degrees in 50 mins.... that tells me that it could keep going at a pretty quick rate.)

Someone feel free to convince me otherwise- I've wondered about this for a while. :confused2:

 

[ichthyoid]

I think you are correct Mojo, and also I believe the A/C guys call it the 'offset' (actual minus desired). If the 'offset' is less than what you had before, I believe you would be using less energy. Presumably this applies to both seasons, as we generally try to 'raise' the temperature during the winter, and 'lower' the temperature during the summer. Both processes are net energy 'consumers'. Less offset = less energy consumed.

 

[oz]

My less scientific logic:

Winter: 77-78 degrees Summer: 80-81
4am - 12pm - 2x250w lights on over the frag tank
10am - 10pm - T5 actinics on over the display (no realy heat transfer)
12pm - 8pm - 3x250w lights on over the display (soon to be 3x400w)
6pm - 4am - Fuge and holding tank lights on

I don't have an Apex so I can't tell how much my chiller is running but I can't remember the last time I heard it cut on since it's been colder out. (especially since it's outside like yours) So this boils down to how hard my heaters have to work to maintain the desired tempurature during the non MH phot periods. My logic is it has to take less energy for the system to maintain a lower tempurature in the winter because nature is naturally pulling the temp down and the reverse in the summer.

I see where you're coming from and I guess the difference may be minimal but since you now have a new AC unit think of it this way.....during a 95 degree summer day, the AC works harder (on longer, more energy, more $) to maintain 80 than if it was 85 outside or if you were trying to maintain 85 instead of 80.

 

[skriz]

mojo;421656 wrote: But is it actually helpful? If you keep your tank at, say, 77 in the winter, and 81 in the summer, and you're still trying to keep everything down by two degrees in each instance, are you really using less energy? I'm not sure I can explain my thinking. Lemme try with an example:

In winter, let's say I want to keep my tank at 77 degrees. If I don't have any cooling and let things run like normal, let's say it'd hit 90 degrees.

In summer, let's say I want to keep it at 81, and if I let things go, they might hit 95.

So.. in one instance I have to remove 90-77=13 degrees and in another, 14 degrees. Doesn't seem like I'd be saving a lot.


(I have no idea how hot my tank would get b/c I've never wanted to test; however, by looking at my Apex graphs, I see that my temps go from 77.7 to 79 degrees in 50 mins.... that tells me that it could keep going at a pretty quick rate.)

Someone feel free to convince me otherwise- I've wondered about this for a while. :confused2:

So, you would be better off keeping your tank at 81, so you have 9 degrees in one instance and 14 in the other. Which means in order for you to benefit from temp adjustment, you'd have to set your summer high point at 82+ degrees

 

[grouper therapy]

Less offset between target temp and ambient temp means less energy used any way you choose to look at it. In theory if your tank could run at the room ambient temp then no heater or chiller would be used. If you were to target the same 77 in the summer as you did in the winter then there is no savings . That is what most are saying is that by lower or raising the temp you keep the difference the same instead of the offset being higher in the summer or vice versa in the winter.

 

[oz]

It looks like you have to fight your lights during the day from all the tanks to cool the water with your chiller and then use heaters during the night to keep the water warm when most of your lights are out. That's why I spread as much light out over 24hrs as possible (and why my frag lights are never on when you stop by )

In your case, it might not make sense because you'd be using your chiller more during the day to bring the water down the extra few degrees beacuse of the light heat. The other part of that is your MH's are on around 8hrs a day, that leaves 16hrs for your heaters to maintain that higher temp (along with the normal pump heat).

 

[mojo]

grouper therapy;421676 wrote: Less offset between target temp and ambient temp means less energy used any way you choose to look at it. In theory if your tank could run at the room ambient temp then no heater or chiller would be used.

I guess that's my point... I'm not convinced that the offset is that much different. Almost all of us set our house thermostat differently in summer and winter, and my basement temp can vary as much as 10 degrees between the two seasons. I guess I'd have to see more data to show me how dropping the tank temp by a couple degrees in the appropriate season is going to save any money / electricity...