dosing like crazy and CA still LOW

[wbrown]

A few months ago I OD'd calcium in my 90, DKH plummeted and after a fight, finally got everything hot, straight and normal. Ca dropped from way over 500 to 420, stabilized for a couple weeks, then fell off like nobodies business.
I've been dosing Brightwell Calcion P at DOUBLE</em> the stock mix ratio and volume, and can't get it to go above 350. (10 tsp per 8oz water, dosing 120 ml daily)
Mag tests good, little on the low end, Strontium tests good, dKH 11, PH 8.3, amm 0, trates and trites 0, salinity 1.023 with a SG of 32 (I believe.. brain dead ATM.)
Using all Salifert tests, and even cross checked my CA test with a new kit.
I have a lot of frags, nothing I would call large or really respectable in this tank. I'm at a loss as to what's causing my calcium lowness, and inability to raise it.
I'm ordering a calcium reactor from BRS, and two part as well for my other tanks, waiting on a couple others local to me to chime in their orders before pulling the trigger.
Is there anything I'm overlooking? I do have growth, but wow.. that's a lotta CA additive. More than I think I should be using..

 

[tokejr]

I'm interested in the replies - we're fighting the same battle.

Alk high, pH on the low end (8.0-8.1), Calcium bounces between 250 and 450 with additives, but won't stabilize.

We've been using the Kent 2 part, but just put in the first dose of Brightwell on the advice of the guy at Marine Designs. It bounced today from 275 to 425 with a dose of Brightwell this morning, but is back down to 350 now and falling.

I recently added 2 large colonies of montipora (cap and digitata), so I'm wondering if the new corals are just using it up as fast as I can put it in.

 

[wbrown]

I got tired of spending $ and trips to the LFS on the kent marine stuff. Tried the brightwell on a recommendation too, so far I'm losing the battle.
I can't get mine to spike for more than a few minutes. If I wait an hour after dosing, it's at the same level..

 

[tokejr]

wbrown;347506 wrote: I got tired of spending $ and trips to the LFS on the kent marine stuff. Tried the brightwell on a recommendation too, so far I'm losing the battle.
I can't get mine to spike for more than a few minutes. If I wait an hour after dosing, it's at the same level..

We stopped using the Kent because everytime we added calcium, the alkalinity went up. That didn't happen (yet?) with the Brightwell....but only one dose so far.

Thanks for letting me tag along on your thread. Replies will be interesting.

Maybe it's a full moon or something affecting our calcium. :lol2:

 

[ralph atl]

http://web.archive.org/web/20021127040526/http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm">http://web.archive.org/web/20021127040526/http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm</a>


[IMG]http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm">http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm</a>


first get a 2 part like B-ionic and get both parems to where you want it. then dose daily (or 2 x's) a dose that maintains that level. Read the above chart. here's a caculator for you:

[IMG]http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html">http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html</a>

 

[tokejr]

ares;347511 wrote: first Id get a second opinion on the calcium test...

then Id test some fresh mixed water.

Id expect the solution would be found at this point, but if that isnt it... I donno. but I think 1 of them will be it.

Yeah, we thought bad test, too.

First, he tested newly mixed saltwater - got expected results according to the package on the salt.

Second, tested another tank in the house (30 gallon) and got expected readings.

(We're testing pH, dKH and calcium.)

We went out and bought a new test kit, tested again with both (API and Seachem) and got the exact same readings.

It ain't a bad test kit.

If only it was that simple.

 

[tokejr]

mysterybox;347510 wrote: http://web.archive.org/web/20021127040526/http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm"></a>first get a 2 part like B-ionic and get both parems to where you want it. [/QUOTE]

Therein lies the problem "get both parems to where you want it."

Calcium just won't go there.

 

[tokejr]

ares;347534 wrote: perhaps the calcium is precipitating out for some reason... ussually only happens if it is super saturated. what is the mag reading? you said a little low, what is it at?

my mag is 1500

Yesterday the alk went as high as 20dKH, though the usual reading has been 15-17 (yes, still high).

Did a 20% water change yesterday when the alk went that high.

 

[ralph atl]

use the calculator to dose what it will take, then add that amount over a couple of days. Dose 2x daily to maintain. It sounds like either your calcium is precip or you are not adding enough daily to maintain and raise it.

 

[ralph atl]

It'll take some time to get it stable.

 

[ralph atl]

Switch your salt to seachem reef salt. This way your base will already be "there" and everytime u do a water change, it won't drop.

 

[wbrown]

my mag is 1320 ppm.
Only thing left in my mind is 50% W/C.
With the dKH, and PH reading normal prior to and after the test (1 hour before, 1 hour after) I'm lost.
I just checked some water I've had mixed for a couple days, 450.
Using Oceanic mix, if that makes a difference.

I've already lived the 'seeing' Ca precipitate when I OD'd this tank awhile back. Thats why I'm testing before and after dosing to see what changes and in what amounts things are swinging.

One thing to note; when mixing water my source water ph is 7.0 to 7.5. I dose ph prior to adding salt mix. Once mixed dKH and ph are nailed and don't vary until I introduce it to the tank.
What's the odds that I'm creating this phenomenon withou realizing it?
Using baking soda and seachem reef builder to adjust in the mix barrels several days prior to a w/c and aerating the snot out of it. I have noticed a bit of 'scale' on the barrel, but attributed that to undissolved baking soda...

 

[wbrown]

ares;347542 wrote: how big of a tank and what is the coral population? it would need to be extremely serious to think that the corals are consuming the calcium faster than he can dose it...

the tank I'm fighting is a 90, with a 20ish gallon sump.
corals are heavy in number, small frags in size. I wouldn't say it's overstocked until it grows out.

 

[wbrown]

now I have a headache..
using the formula for zone 4 corrections, My calcium should be at or above 400?

What am I missing here?
<p style="text-align:left"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 14px">Corrections for Zone 4</span></span>
<p style="text-align:left"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 13px">Zone 4 problems are also a little harder to correct. It is typically caused by overdosing calcium RELATIVE to alkalinity, but does not necessarily imply that alkalinity is either to high or too low (though it is almost always too low). To correct problems in this zone, monitoring of calcium and alkalinity values during correction is especially important.</span></span>
<p style="text-align:left"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 13px">If this problem is extreme (i.e., you are far from the line at the left hand edge of zone 4), then water changes may be the best way to correct to the problem. In most cases, however, water changes aren’t necessary. </span></span>
<p style="text-align:center"> <div style="text-align: center">http://web.archive.org/web/20021127040526/http://www.advancedaquarist.com/images/nov2002/figure5.gif" alt="" />
<span style="font-family: Arial"><span style="font-size: 13px">Figure 5. A graph showing how to correct values within zone 4 by adding an alkalinity additive, such as baking soda (the blue arrow).</span></span> </div>
<p style="text-align:left"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 13px">If alkalinity were less than 4 meq/L (11 dKH; the most common situation in zone 4; shown in Figure 5), I would advise correcting this problem by adding an alkalinity supplement until you have moved into the target zone (or zone 1). For systems with a pH of 8.2 or above, baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) is a good choice. For systems with a pH below 8.2, washing soda (sodium carbonate) is a good choice (though use some baking soda too if the correction is a large one and the pH gets too high; that is, above pH 8.5 or so).</span></span>
[/QUOTE]

 

[tokejr]

ares;347542 wrote: how big of a tank and what is the coral population? it would need to be extremely serious to think that the corals are consuming the calcium faster than he can dose it...

72 gallon bowfront/20 gallon sump with refugium

First picture is the monti cap colony I added after last Tuesday's meeting.

Second picture is the monti digi colony I added the next Friday.

Also added 2 acro and 1 monti cap frags I after the last meeting.

 

[tokejr]

To get from 275 to 450 calcium

Product required:
Add 26.4 tsps; 132.45 grms; 4.65 oz.

Balanced Alkalinity is: 4.45 meq/l at 450 ppm

We're adding the Brightwell calcium now, and the alkalinity has risen 2 points since we started adding.

 

[tokejr]

The pH coming out of our RO/DI unit is 6.0.

We, too, correct pH of the water but only for top off for evaporation.

We don't correct when mixing the salt for water changes - the salt does the correction.

 

[wbrown]

ares;347563 wrote: why dose PH before adding salt? I think that might be messing with your water... the PH of water should be 7-7.5 if its fresh water. its the salts that give it the PH. if you raise the PH before you add the salt, after the salt it might spike it and then it might be making problems...

I thunk I was doin' right boss.
I checked ph after salt in the same barrel, and it was 8.3- 8.5
Prior mixes I just added salt, and ended up dosing ph and alk to support the Calcium level according to the chart I had prior to the links above.
Don't hold back; if I'm overthinking this, tell me like it is. I'd appreciate it.
Still trying to get my head around which does what. Frustrated that according to my tests, my calcium should spike and stay and what I'm getting is spike 'n drop.. Where's all this product going? No deposits on my heater, no concrete-like sandbed, no evidence that the stuff is precipitating like last time either. (snow)
I'll do another battery of tests in the AM, and retest with another kit ( I already have) and post the results. Hopefully something will smack me upside the head and I can get past chasing my tail and working my butt off trying to maintain it.

I've about half a mind to drain water into my QT tanks and relocate the coral and fish there and do a near 100% change and see what happens.
Probably kill off all my pods and bacteria and really screw myself over then..

 

[wbrown]

out of curiosity, is there a table somewhere to convert DKH to meq/L?
I think I saw the norm for DKH was 9 to 12?
BTW: It's been a loooooooooong time since chemistry and math classes, the links above I printed and read, but the calculations totally lost me.

 

[ralph atl]

ares;347568 wrote: and both of you have high DKH... perhaps a cause? Id quit with the dosing, the PH of your topoff water will blend in with the tank water soon enough, it absorbs the salts that do not evaporate and become oxygenated, it should maintain an even keel. if your top off is done in relatively small amounts into a sump, it wont need to be dosed.

hummmm, I think you have something here. I have never heard of this practice before, and I would immediately stop.