dosing like crazy and CA still LOW

[dannybradley]

http://www.saltyzoo.com/SaltyCalcs/AlkConv.php">Alkalinity conversion calculator.</a>

The first thing that came to my mind was elevated dKH. Especially with TokeJR.

15-20dKH is dangerously high. At 20 dKH your calcium would have to be 1177pm, Strontium at 22ppm, and your magnesium would have to be 3685ppm to be ionically balanced. Those level are impossible to achieve, as they are beyond saturation.

It's also impossible to raise dKH by dosing calcium chloride(the base for almost every calcium supplement); you can only lower it. If it's a bottle full of calcium carbonate(Purple Up, Liquid Reactor), it can raise it, as the acid in the test will dissolve the CaCO3 and show up as total alkalinity.

It just occured to me that it's probably your pH supplement. It's more than likely NaCO2/NaCO3 based. It's binding with calcium as you dose it, dropping the level, and keeping the alkalinity stable or rising. Stop dosing that, let your pH dip a little, and see what your calcium does.

Either yout tests are wrong or the calcium is precipitating out. Neither system is close enough to being able to consume that level of calcium.

 

[wbrown]

wbrown;347581 wrote: out of curiosity, is there a table somewhere to convert DKH to meq/L?
I think I saw the norm for DKH was 9 to 12?
BTW: It's been a loooooooooong time since chemistry and math classes, the links above I printed and read, but the calculations totally lost me.

found one.

 

[wbrown]

DannyBradley;347625 wrote: http://www.saltyzoo.com/SaltyCalcs/AlkConv.php">Alkalinity conversion calculator.</a>

The first thing that came to my mind was elevated dKH. Especially with TokeJR.

15-20dKH is dangerously high. At 20 dKH your calcium would have to be 1177pm, Strontium at 22ppm, and your magnesium would have to be 3685ppm to be ionically balanced. Those level are impossible to achieve, as they are beyond saturation.

It's also impossible to raise dKH by dosing calcium chloride(the base for almost every calcium supplement); you can only lower it. If it's a bottle full of calcium carbonate(Purple Up, Liquid Reactor), it can raise it, as the acid in the test will dissolve the CaCO3 and show up as total alkalinity.

It just occured to me that it's probably your pH supplement. It's more than likely NaCO2/NaCO3 based. It's binding with calcium as you dose it, dropping the level, and keeping the alkalinity stable or rising. Stop dosing that, let your pH dip a little, and see what your calcium does.

Either yout tests are wrong or the calcium is precipitating out. Neither system is close enough to being able to consume that level of calcium.[/QUOTE]
thanks for the link.
without getting overly technical, is there a means to lower pH without adding another chemical? I have not added any buffer in several weeks, and calcium dosing has been in the last 10 days.
I do most of my tests around lunchtime, so I can eliminate lighting varying the degree of color change on the tests. I'll test at near the same time today and record all levels without having dosed or topped off yet.

 

[wbrown]

maybe it's the delivery, but this made some sense to me..

 

[tokejr]

DannyBradley;347625 wrote: http://www.saltyzoo.com/SaltyCalcs/AlkConv.php">Alkalinity conversion calculator.</a>

The first thing that came to my mind was elevated dKH. Especially with TokeJR.

15-20dKH is dangerously high. At 20 dKH your calcium would have to be 1177pm, Strontium at 22ppm, and your magnesium would have to be 3685ppm to be ionically balanced. Those level are impossible to achieve, as they are beyond saturation.

It's also impossible to raise dKH by dosing calcium chloride(the base for almost every calcium supplement); you can only lower it. If it's a bottle full of calcium carbonate(Purple Up, Liquid Reactor), it can raise it, as the acid in the test will dissolve the CaCO3 and show up as total alkalinity.

It just occured to me that it's probably your pH supplement. It's more than likely NaCO2/NaCO3 based. It's binding with calcium as you dose it, dropping the level, and keeping the alkalinity stable or rising. Stop dosing that, let your pH dip a little, and see what your calcium does.

Either yout tests are wrong or the calcium is precipitating out. Neither system is close enough to being able to consume that level of calcium.[/QUOTE]

As I said, everytime we dose calcium the alkalinity rises. And, as the Seachem rep told us via email when we asked, some calcium products contain additivies which can raise your alkalinity - including some of theirs.

The other night, we dosed seltzer water as suggested by [IMG]http://www.athiel.com/lib2/tips/lowering.html">http://www.athiel.com/lib2/tips/lowering.html</a> to bring down alkalinity - it dropped pH, while alkalinity rose.

After dosing Brightwell again last night, the alkalinity is 16 dKH and the calcium is 275 with pH 8.0.

This tank was balanced nicely until we dripped kalkwasser after adding the corals and the calcium dropped.

At this point, it looks like we need a 50% water change. Nothing else is working.

 

[ralph atl]

When I dose the calcium part of b-ionic, only my calcium goes up. When I dose the alk part, only the alk goes up. (within the context of this thread)

I would do a 25% water change now, and another one late this evening or tomorrow. I would switch products to b-ionic, c-balance, etc., Oceanic is fine, except for lower alk. Stop dosing ph. I would switch to seachem reef, too. Less dosing required, less mistakes.

 

[tokejr]

We've never added a buffer to the tank - until now, the numbers never required it and we're firm believers that simple, regular water changes usually keep a tank in balance.

We tested regular parameters before a water change and discovered the low calcium number.

Now, we just keep trying to "fix" and it keeps getting worse. Bearing out our belief that the more you mess with it, the more you mess it up.

 

[wbrown]

my problems started a few months back, a buddy from out of town with a spectacular reef brought me some additives with copied instructions. I did not have a Ca test at the time, but we assumed it would have dropped and made a stock solution and dosed the tank. At the same time we left to go to an event out of town, and I left instructions for the missus on what to do, and what to use. Needless to say I didn't label the containers properly, and she dumped a bunch of Ca in the tank. While we were gone, I picked up a Ca test kit, and on returning home we had 'snow' in the DT. Test kit went to 500ppm of Ca, and maxxed out. pH was at 7.4 according to my records, and ALK was 15 DKH.
Several water changes later, I opted to raise the pH and ALK to support the Ca level present and started the tail chasing thing. At least the visible precipitation stopped.. but I've never achieved balance since, and have had to dose one thing or another at different parts of the day or week to keep the readings somewhat around the 'normal' levels.

 

[tokejr]

ares;347568 wrote: and both of you have high DKH... perhaps a cause? Id quit with the dosing, the PH of your topoff water will blend in with the tank water soon enough, it absorbs the salts that do not evaporate and become oxygenated, it should maintain an even keel. if your top off is done in relatively small amounts into a sump, it wont need to be dosed.

We top off 1 gallon a day due to evaporation (open tank, no lid) by adding 1 gallon of water to the sump, which runs through the fuge before going into the tank.

 

[jeep9783]

mag is probably low...do a 50% water change I use to have that problem bf the kalk reactor

 

[tokejr]

jeep9783;347697 wrote: mag is probably low...do a 50% water change I use to have that problem bf the kalk reactor

Nope, Mag is not low - it's a bit high, in fact.

 

[wbrown]

Alrighty... this took longer than expected, but ran each test twice with different people. Used Tetra, API, and Salifert tests as indicated.
We ran out of reagent for some of the Tetra tests, and posted the API results.
I created an excel spreadsheet and printed to pdf file which is attached, I will also try to post the table, not certain how it will work.
We tested:
42 gallon mixing barrel that has been mixed for 7 days
90 gallon DT (problem child)
16 gallon frag tank
4 gallon pail of fresh mix, test started 1 1/2 hours after mixing, and was aerated heavily.

I see my calcium has finally come up in the 90g, MAG appears high enough to support it. Anything else look out of the ordinary?

Sat 5/23/09
mix barrel tank one tank two new mix

42 Gal pre-mix 90 gal DT 16 gal DT 4 gal pail






pH Tetra Kit 7.7 7.7 xx xx
API kit 8.0-8.2 7.8 7.8 7.8 DKH Tetra Kit 7 10 8 7

Ca Salifert 300 ppm 490 ppm 500 ppm 500 ppm

Salinity hydrometer 32 29 32 31

Specific Gravity hydrometer 1.023 1.021 1.023 1.023

MAG Salifert 1470 ppm 1440 ppm 1470 ppm 1470 ppm

NO2 Tetra Kit &lt;0.3 &lt;0.3 xx xx
API kit 0.25 0 0 0 NH3/NH4 Tetra Kit 0.25 0 xx xx
API kit 0.25 0 0 0.25 NO3 Tetra Kit 0 xx xx xx
API kit 0 0 0 0






xx = ran out of regent to test
<fieldset class="gc-fieldset">
<legend> Attached files </legend>

 

[wbrown]

I usually have to top off 2 gallons in the early evening, straight into the sump or overflow on DT depending on whether I feel like bending over or not.
Based on my findings, I think I'm good for the moment. Other than top off, I'll be hands off for a week and retest everything again and see where things stand.

 

[wbrown]

IamRit;347741 wrote: Just curious, do you have lots of sps and clams in your tank? I have to dose lots and lots of baking soda and pool calcium everyday along with running hard a calcium reactor just to maintain the proper water parameters since I have lots of sps and a very large gigas clam and they are growing nicely.

I have a lot of small frags, largest is 1 1/2 inch tall x 1 1/2 inch wide. A good bit of softies, and a few LPS's. I also have two flame scallops, about 1 1/4 inch in diameter, hermits, snails, and fish.
Overall the SPS outweighs the others, but in volume; less than 1 pound total.

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[wbrown]

thanks. Did you see the pdf on page 2 of my results today? I'm wondering if a W/C is required at this time?

 

[tokejr]

IamRit;347741 wrote: Just curious, do you have lots of sps and clams in your tank? I have to dose lots and lots of baking soda and pool calcium everyday along with running hard a calcium reactor just to maintain the proper water parameters since I have lots of sps and a very large gigas clam and they are growing nicely.

I have several large colonies of montipora that I added to the tank which coincided with the calcium drop, and within a week of that a decent size fox coral. I also added my first 2 acro frags at the same time as the monti - good size frags, 3 x 3. Had 2 small candy cane and small poci colonies which were the only calcium users prior to the drop. Lots of softies and zoanthid.

Everything in the tank LOOKS fine, all eating, but the coraline growth on the back of the tank is veeeeeeery slow. I can see, on the live rock, however that the coraline fades to white/pale green, comes back with calicum additive, then fades again as it goes down.

 

[wbrown]

my coraline died off on the glass, not certain if it was the light change or the OD of Ca and low ALK that got it.
Went from 4 65W pc's to 500W HQI and 200 W actinic the same week as the overdose..
coraline on the rock seems to be doing okay.

 

[tokejr]

IamRit;347756 wrote: Tokejr, in you case, too many sps might be the culprit. It's a good thing though.

Yeah, I know.......the good part........

They are all showing great polyp extension, their colors are good and they are all growing. So I'm doing something right.

You're not seeing an alkalinity problem dosing baking soda?

 

[wbrown]

IamRit;347760 wrote: Wbrown, your alk reading between 8-10 is ok, cal 490-500 is a little on the high side but is fine. Mag is 1470-1490 is a little on the high side. I noticed in my situation when I run the mag a little too high (1500) I tend to burn the tips of my acro. Nothing that can't be fixed though.

too high beats where it was yesterday and the day before. I can wait this out and it will fall on it's own I hope. Trick will be to catch it before it drops too much again.

 

[tokejr]

IamRit;347769 wrote: What really concerned me about your situation is that you mentioned your calcium keep dropping fast. You don't have that many sps to give a good reason to drop. I would try to pinpoint the caused of the dropped in cal if I were you.
Were you adding any type of additives to your system when you start having the dropped in cal?

We don't add anything to the tank. Well, we didn't until this started. The only thing we ever added to the water was baking soda to top off water - about a gallon a day added through the sump/fuge. The water coming out of the RO/DI unit is 6.0 pH - so we boosted the pH before adding it to the sump.

All we ever did was water changes, top off for evaporation, and food.