Elaborate Plumbing Project

[seth the wine guy]

I posted this in the the Reef Discussion forum but realized this is probably the appropriate place for my question.
I need some help/input on the best way to run an extended sump to DT loop. I am planning on doing a 120g DT with a 120g sump/refuge. My only option is to run pipe from the fish room outside and underground to the DT. It's a total of 65 linear feet of piping each way. About 30 feet of this will actually be outside/underground. I do not want to go underground more than 1-2 feet. This is below the frost line for GA. I am concerned about winter time and the water being returned to the DT being too cold. I'm thinking about getting a large PVC pipe to run the two smaller pipes through for extra insulation and protection from rupture/breaking. I hope to be able to use 2 Blue Line 55HD pumps for pumping both directions. Total vertical climb will be around 12 feet for the return and an 8 foot climb from the sump then it will have a downhill ride to the DT.
I am really interested to see if anyone else has successfully done this. If not, I'm open to all suggestions, thoughts, and experiences.

 

[lilrobb]

One thing, you can't use two pumps - there is no way to keep them balanced...

 

[grouper therapy]

Seth the two things that come to mind are
:First I think you are correct in your thinking that the temp will be a problem especially at 1-2' depth. Not sure the r value of the bigger pipe .
:Second is the use of two pumps. If you are thinking about pumping the water both ways then I'm not sure how or if it could be done but the pumps' output would need to be exactly the same. If they are not in synch one of the two tanks would overflow.

 

[lilrobb]

I still think it can be done - 1.5" drains and 1" return, a pressure rated pump easily pumps water that far...

 

[grouper therapy]

If the sump is uphill from the dt then in actuality the dt would become the sump from a plumbing standpoint.

 

[lilrobb]

I am reading this now - basically there is a "hill" in between the two vessels?

 

[seth the wine guy]

LilRobb;593141 wrote: I am reading this now - basically there is a "hill" in between the two vessels?

Yes, there is about a 15-20 foot run uphill. In that span there is about a 10ft rise. The sump is ACTUALLY at about the same elevation as the DT but it has an uphill climb to ultimately get there. One thing I can say is there will be no flow problems in the tank. I've got 3 MP40's for that. That being said, can I then get away with a slower water recirculation loop than what's normally seen on a tank?

 

[seth the wine guy]

After some input and ideas I think I will revert back to another idea. I don't think I want to deal with the problems of the water chilling or the pumps being able to drive water the distance I would need them to if run outside.

I had already put plumbing behind the crown molding for water changes. At first I didn't plan on doing a remote sump. I am considering taking off the crown molding and boxing the ceiling corners using two 1"x4". Will then reattach the crown and add some more for aesthetics.

I have done a sketch to help people know what I am thinking. The red line is where both the drain and return pipes will be side by side. Then, at the corner of the room where the DT is the each pipe will snake around a different route to the tank. I still think a pump will be needed at each end. I could conceivably raise the height of the sump in the fish room to be higher than the display and get a long range siphon going but I think with the right valves and a little ingenuity I can have pumps running on both ends.

 

[grouper therapy]

Keep us posted. I like the crown idea. The two pump set up is going to be way different please let us know what you come up with on it.:thumbs:

 

[seth the wine guy]

grouper therapy;593136 wrote:

:Second is the use of two pumps. If you are thinking about pumping the water both ways then I'm not sure how or if it could be done but the pumps' output would need to be exactly the same. If they are not in synch one of the two tanks would overflow.

Here is my thought on those. Connect conductivity probes or float switches to the pumps on either end. When the water level raises past a certain point the probe is triggered, it then kills power to that pump. This would allow one pump to catch up with the other if they are out of sink. I don't know how much the pumps will like the stop and start but there are also some valve options that would allow me to manipulate and balance flow. I would rather not try to calibrate valves though. That makes it too complicated for my taste.

Also, in theory, if I had the sump at a higher elevation than the DT I could create a siphon. Same as any other system but as you said earlier in the thread, from a plumbing standpoint the tank is the sump. I see no reason it can't work in reverse.

 

[fish scales2]

ATO will be the issue with running multiple pumps and float switches. I also think running exterior of house will work better than through the crown on remote sump. Simply done. High pressure pumps are the way to go with the distance and amount of turns you will have.

 

[grouper therapy]

When I mentioned the soffit/crown to you I envisioned the DT upstairs and the sump in the basement for some reason.

 

[grouper therapy]

Fish Scales2;593346 wrote: ATO will be the issue with running multiple pumps and float switches. I also think running exterior of house will work better than through the crown on remote sump. Simply done. High pressure pumps are the way to go with the distance and amount of turns you will have.

Chris what's your thoughts on the temp control of the return water in the pipe 1'-2' underground for 30'?

 

[fish scales2]

Several simple ways

1) Insulated pvc
2) Flex watt heat tape controlled by Apex
3) Bury the PVC for return at 3'-6' where applicable


Double pumps can work on this system but you would have to increase the volume significantly.

The last thing you want to do is to plumb this system up and realize the weak points are behind finished trim and sheet rock. Tearing back into completed work would really be a bummer.

 

[seth the wine guy]

grouper therapy;593136 wrote: Seth the two things that come to mind are
:First I think you are correct in your thinking that the temp will be a problem especially at 1-2' depth. Not sure the r value of the bigger pipe .
:Second is the use of two pumps. If you are thinking about pumping the water both ways then I'm not sure how or if it could be done but the pumps' output would need to be exactly the same. If they are not in synch one of the two tanks would overflow.

Fish Scales2;593354 wrote: Several simple ways

1) Insulated pvc
2) Flex watt heat tape controlled by Apex
3) Bury the PVC for return at 3'-6' where applicable


Double pumps can work on this system but you would have to increase the volume significantly.

The last thing you want to do is to plumb this system up and realize the weak points are behind finished trim and sheet rock. Tearing back into completed work would really be a bummer.

This is where someone with some great math skills should come in! I'm sure we could figure out exactly how much heat loss would happen from sump to Tank. Just have to know the variables.
1. 35 feet of 1" pipe going each direction that is inside and at room temperature of 68 degrees.
2. 30 feet of 1" pipe running each direction inside a 4" pipe that is buried at a depth that will provide a near constant temp year round.
3. Find out the R values for all pipes involved and determine their combined value.
4. Flow rate of water in the pipes. The faster she's moving the less time to cool down.

Going with the underground option leaves me with the feeling the two Blueline 55HD's I have need to be added to my sales thread. I don't think they can move water that far that fast. On the downhill run to the tank maybe.

The proper equation should allow us to figure out how many degrees the temp will drop from sump to tank. Is it ok to run the sump and tank at two different temps? Say the sump at 80 and tank at 74 to combat heat loss? Or would both tank and sump need to be dialed up?

I guess the pipes could get noisy if in the molding. Not ruling it out entirely, but now I'm leaning back to routing outside. What a seesaw! :swordfight:

 

[fish scales2]

And what happens if you take that 1" pipe inside the 4" and wrap the 1" pipe with flex watt heat tape and then insulate with great foam completely. What I imagine would be less than 1 degree fluctuation between sump and display.

 

[grouper therapy]

Fish Scales2;593354 wrote: Several simple ways

1) Insulated pvc
2) Flex watt heat tape controlled by Apex
3) Bury the PVC for return at 3'-6' where applicable


Double pumps can work on this system but you would have to increase the volume significantly.

The last thing you want to do is to plumb this system up and realize the weak points are behind finished trim and sheet rock. Tearing back into completed work would really be a bummer.</em>

So you had rather dig up your yard than take down some crown mold?
What would you insulate with?
What happens when the heat tape burns out at 3'-6' down?

Are the pipes in your walls now noisy?

 

[grouper therapy]

Fish Scales2;593354 wrote: Several simple ways

1) Insulated pvc
2) Flex watt heat tape controlled by Apex
3) Bury the PVC for return at 3'-6' where applicable


Double pumps can work on this system but you would have to increase the volume significantly.

The last thing you want to do is to plumb this system up and realize the weak points are behind finished trim and sheet rock. Tearing back into completed work would really be a bummer.

Please explain.

 

[mockery]

Seth The Wine Guy;593379 wrote: This is where someone with some great math skills should come in! I'm sure we could figure out exactly how much heat loss would happen from sump to Tank. Just have to know the variables.
1. 35 feet of 1" pipe going each direction that is inside and at room temperature of 68 degrees.
2. 30 feet of 1" pipe running each direction inside a 4" pipe that is buried at a depth that will provide a near constant temp year round.
3. Find out the R values for all pipes involved and determine their combined value.
4. Flow rate of water in the pipes. The faster she's moving the less time to cool down.

Going with the underground option leaves me with the feeling the two Blueline 55HD's I have need to be added to my sales thread. I don't think they can move water that far that fast. On the downhill run to the tank maybe.

The proper equation should allow us to figure out how many degrees the temp will drop from sump to tank. Is it ok to run the sump and tank at two different temps? Say the sump at 80 and tank at 74 to combat heat loss? Or would both tank and sump need to be dialed up?

I guess the pipes could get noisy if in the molding. Not ruling it out entirely, but now I'm leaning back to routing outside. What a seesaw! :swordfight:

You could calculate it with r value but IMO I think it would be easier to do with cp value and time it would take to travel the total pipe length. Judy another idea.

 

[grouper therapy]

Now I do think that a large pipe could be buried as a raceway with both ends exposed to a climate controlled room and that might help regulate the temp. Why would you want two pumps if one tank is that far uphill?