Fick

[jgoal55]

ok, so just when I though everything was going great (except for my plate coral whihc seems a bit better actually), I noticed today that most of my fish (except for the firefish and the six line wrasse) have ick. - Fick, haha, get it?

My mandarin goby has very few spots, the royal gramma has a few on his face, and my two clowns have some too: the larger female has a few spots but the little guy is covered in it.

After some research, it seems that the most common cause of ick is water conditions but mine are perfect.....my fish have been in there since Monday the 12th and I only noticed the ick yesterday/today. The only thing I can think of is that one of them had but it didn't worsen until just now....

So i did some more reading and read that copper was the most popular salt treatment for ick only to find out that it cant be used in reef tanks.....no help there.....I read a bit about UV sterilizers as well and most everything Ive read is good but I also read that they are not good to leave on all the time and that they dont really treat ick because it doesnt really pass through the UV light.

Are there any treatments for ick out there? Does ick affect corals? What should I do?

Problem....the only hospital tank I can set up is ten gallons small...I have a total of 6 fish and I dont think that would be good for the mandarin either?

Thanks again,
Jorge

 

[cgill311]

You might want to recheck your parameters with a different test. I thought my pH was fine until I recalibrated my RK2. It turns out I was getting a false reading of 8.1 when it was actually 7.8.

 

[jgoal55]

I will check my PH again just ot be sure.....if it is my PH though and I bring it back up, that wont make the ick go away though will it?

 

[showtime305]

<span style="color: black;">Where do I begin? </span>
<span style="color: black;"> </span>
<span style="color: black;">I really think that something in your tank is stressing your fish pretty bad. You should take you tank water to a LFS to get a second opinion on the water quality. What are the tank readings that you are getting? It is extremely rare for a mandarin dragonet to get ick so that what makes me think they are being stressed badly.</span>
<span style="color: black;"> </span>
<span style="color: black;">You should set up the 10g QT tank if that's all you got or try to get a tank that a little bigger. It will take a few days before your QT is ready for fish so get started on that A.S.A.P... I would start by taking the most infected fish out first. The dragonet should remain in the display tank for feeding purposes plus they are the more likely to rid themselves of ick than the other fish. Don't worry about the corals, ick doesn't affect them. </span>
<span style="color: black;"> </span>
<span style="color: black;">There are several ways you can treat ick once you get the fish into the QT. Hypo salinity is probably the most reliable, but cooper should do a good job also. Your display tank needs to remain empty for a minimum of 4 weeks to guarantee it is ick free.</span>
<span style="color: black;"> </span>
<span style="color: black;">With all of that said, it's up to you if you want to follow through with this type of treatment. Many hobbyist including myself, have battled through ick outbreaks by providing a stable environment and proper nutrition. I'll admit that the fish do get better, but ick probably still exist in the tank.</span>

 

[jgoal55]

I just tested my parameters again using a couple of different test kits.....

API PH: lower than last time i checked (about 4 days ago): 7.8-8.0 (color was right in the middle).

Salifert Calcium: 430

Salifert Alkalinity: 13.6

and here is my guess on the culprit: API Ammonia: .25 - hadnt tested for ammonia in a while.....did a water change last week but i guess its time for another one immediately.....

so here is the question.....if i get rid of the ammonia, I still have the ick.....do I take the hospital tank route like you suggest or go the "hope they heal" route and maybe use kick ick?

 

[FutureInterest]

The answer to that question depends on whether or not you want to actually rid your tank of ich... or you want your fish to live in "equilibrium" with it. If you want to actually get rid of it, quarantine them all for 30 days or so and treat with copper while keeping your main tank fallow. If you want to roll the dice and hope they make it, which is very possible, then keep your parameters in the green and your fish fat. I'm a believer in fresh garlic dosing btw... but a lot of people think its voodoo .

Good luck.

 

[schwaggs]

Jorge,

If your system is showing amonia, something is very out of balance. Can you provide a few more details about your system (size, history, inhabitants, etc)? If you can get the fish out of your reef and into a hospital tank for treatment, that is the best place to start. The probem many people have is they can't get their fish out of their reef tanks without tearing the whole thing down.

No, Corals are not effected by Ick. They are, of course, effected by high amonia and nitrate levels.

 

[jgoal55]

is???......lol thanks...

 

[jgoal55]

sorry about the last post there.....weird when i checked the only thing i saw was from futuure and it said...."the answer to that question..." and that was the end of it....hence my post....

anyway, tank history....

about 6 months with 20-30lbs live rock and 2 damsels, some blue leg crabs (maybe 10), and nassarius snails (maybe 15-20)

7th month, 1st week - added one ocellaris clown
7th month, 3rd week - added one firefish goby
8th month, 2nd week - added one six line wrasse

ran with those three for about 3 weeks....until my trip to Miami....

9th month - added 1 open brain, 1 flower pod, 1 finger leather, 1 mandarin, 1 very little ocellaris clown (paired with the female immediately), 40 blue leg crabs, 3 red leg crabs, 1 feather duster and about 15lbs of live rock.

ran 1 week and a half like that, everything great.....then with the LFS telling me it was OK (mentioning all of the above)....

I added 1 frogspawn frag, 1 hammer frag, and 1 plate coral. - all the corals look great except for the plate...who like i said actually seems better...

I dosed calcium about 1 week after i put the first corals and slowly raised the calcium from about 410 to 430.....I dropped my salinity to 1.025 the second I received my refractometer and that was about 8 days ago.....

also, added the T5s the day i added the first corals.

The tank is 30 gallons....it will be sumped and skimmed by the end of the weekend....right now only filtration is water changes and a penguin rated for 50 gallons (no bio wheel)....thats what it has had since day 1.

Temp = 77-78.
DSB - 3 inches

I do wonder if I added too much, too fast but everything was so cheap in Miami that I had a hard time holding off......

 

[showtime305]

The corals really won't create much of a bio-load unless you are feeding them meaty foods. It does sound like your tank was stock with fish at a rate that was too fast. To be honest, if you still have those damsels in the tank then you are over stocked with 7 fish in a 30 gallon. Adding the 5 fish in 2 months is probably going to be the main source of this problem you are facing now.

You should do a water change immediately and get 2-3 of the fish out of that tank and into the QT. You will need to keep up with the water changes on both tanks until they are able to handle the bio-load. Then slowly add one fish per month back to the display tank. Adding the sump is going to give you more water volume and and with the addition of more live rock, your tank should be able to handle this bio-load with no problem.

 

[jgoal55]

thanks....actually i took out the damsels...the fish count is at 6.....

thats what i'll do then....what about the kick ick? should i even try it?

 

[showtime305]

I'm not big on treating anything in my display tanks, but it may be worth a try. You will most likely see an improvement in your fish health as soon as the ammonia level is brought down.

 

[xyzpdq0121]

Showtime305;30038 wrote: <span style="color: black;">Where do I begin? </span>

My thoughts exactly... Where do I even start...

FutureInterest;30058 wrote: The answer to that question depends on whether or not you want to actually rid your tank of ich... or you want your fish to live in "equilibrium" with it. If you want to actually get rid of it, quarantine them all for 30 days or so and treat with copper while keeping your main tank fallow. If you want to roll the dice and hope they make it, which is very possible, then keep your parameters in the green and your fish fat. I'm a believer in fresh garlic dosing btw... but a lot of people think its voodoo .

AJ and Jin both give great advice on this subject. The question you need to ask is "Do I really want to get rid of this Ich or just learn to live with it." I believe the only answer is to get rid of it, but that is my opinion. If that is the case it will tak a bit of cash (less then you are going to spend of FAKE treatments like Kick Ich!!) to set up a QT/Hospital tank. The good thing is it will teach you how to QT all your fish that come in, but I regress. You shoot me a PM and I will give you some Methylene Blue to do a FW dip (plus show you how to do it). You use the above meantoned QT (I recommend 20 gal for your fish) and run the thing at Hyposalenity for two weeks and slowly bring the salt level up for the other two weeks (4 weeks total). I recommend 6 weeks to let main tank clear but 4 weeks is the least amount of time. No copper, No UV none of that unless that Ich does not clear in your QT tank. Your mandarin goby will die with copper (most likely because like tangs and angels, they do not take copper well) your royal, clown and file should be ok with it but what is the use of treating only half your fish.

So you could put the work into it and get rid of it. Or try to go with a different quick fix option but I will look for another post in about a month saying you are back at square one.

While you make your decision, feel free to read this:

Part one: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php">http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php</a>

Part two: [IMG]http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.php">http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.php</a>

Best of luck!!!

BTW: My wife would like to add that you would not leave your cat walking around with a growth off his head and say "Oh he will learn to live with it." You would not let you kid get a broken arm and say, "It will heal on it own" WHy would you let your fish live with a parasite?!? They are our pets and I spend more money on them most days then I do my kid!!!

 

[FutureInterest]

Excellent post. +1.

 

[showtime305]

Agreed +1

 

[glxtrix]

jorge I think we whould try the hyposalinity one first, we just need to make sure that the water is correct. Like stated in one of those articles, just use your 10g and put some pvc pieces in there and throw a filter on and you'll be set.

 

[kappaknight]

I also use cleaner shrimps to help pick the ick off the fish and for regular cleanings if needed. I'm not sure if they can help heavily infected fish though.

 

[ms_ k]

I'd also like to give my opinion, although it may not be an opinion that you want to hear. I agree with everyone that has been said so far. If it was my tank, especially since you don't have a skimmer, I would decrease my bioload to 3-4 fish. Even more importantly, I would sell or return that mandarin. I LOVE mandarins. I have one in my tank, so I can understand the desire to have one. I really believe, though, that except in rare cases, mandarins will not thrive in a 30 gallon aquarium, especially not with a sixline wrasse. The wrasse might outcompete the mandarin for pods. I had two mandarins in a 125 gallon tank with a 58-gallon fuge, both of them would take frozen foods, and one still did not make it. I'm not trying to be preachy. I just think that a mandarin is not a good choice for your current setup. Maybe one day if you have a larger setup with a fuge, it will be a better time to get one.

Good luck! I hope that you're able to remedy your ich problem.

 

[cgill311]

Ms. K;30355 wrote: I just think that a mandarin is not a good choice for your current setup. Maybe one day if you have a larger setup with a fuge, it will be a better time to get one.

Good luck! I hope that you're able to remedy your ich problem.

Unless yours eats prepared foods, I agree with Ms. K completely (+ rep pts). 30 gallons + no sump/fuge + sixline wrasse + 5 other fish + high ammonia + non-optimal water chemistry = poor mandarin

They sure do look great, but unless you have an adequate size tank, sufficient food, and proper water chemistry, it's just cruel to keep a mandarin.

 

[xyzpdq0121]

Ms. K;30355 wrote: I'd also like to give my opinion, although it may not be an opinion that you want to hear. I agree with everyone that has been said so far. If it was my tank, especially since you don't have a skimmer, I would decrease my bioload to 3-4 fish. Even more importantly, I would sell or return that mandarin. I LOVE mandarins. I have one in my tank, so I can understand the desire to have one. I really believe, though, that except in rare cases, mandarins will not thrive in a 30 gallon aquarium, especially not with a sixline wrasse. The wrasse might outcompete the mandarin for pods. I had two mandarins in a 125 gallon tank with a 58-gallon fuge, both of them would take frozen foods, and one still did not make it. I'm not trying to be preachy. I just think that a mandarin is not a good choice for your current setup. Maybe one day if you have a larger setup with a fuge, it will be a better time to get one.

Good luck! I hope that you're able to remedy your ich problem.

Ms. K gets the Rep point of the day award for that post (if I could give her more Rep points!). They are great fish, too bad they are cheap and oversold to the general reefer. 90% (my estimation) die in captivity because of a tank that is ill suited for them. Some will take prepared foods but even at that, it is not enough to sustain alot of them past a year life span! What a waste of a wonderful fish!

To give you an idea of what I think this fish needs. I have a 55G with a 20G total sump/fuge. I have been letting my tank run fallow for two months now because I picked up Ich from anther members tank (Yes Ich can spreak over corals and inverts!). The good thing about this is my pod population is more then the population of sweat shop workers in China. I have post that I have measured at 2.5cm big. They look like cockroaches running over my rock. Mini-feather dusters over everything (even on the backs of my hermits!) It is only at this point that I would even THINK about getting a dragonett. Most tanks I would not recommend it with less then 55Gal with full fuge running 2+ lbs of rock per gallon and no competing fish that hunt down posd.

Like Ms. K, I do not want to come off like a jerk, but you rreally should think about the choice of this fish in your tank. It is my tree hugger alter ego coming out right now! Your tank is too small, too young, and not able to care for this animal long term. It will slowly starve to death. Not a pretty way to go. Just my opinion for what it is worth.


JGoal, if you need help with QT and suck let me know. My hospital bays are opening up soon from treating everyone elses sick fish.