GFI Receptacle or Grounding Probe?

[rdnelson]

<span style="font-size: 13px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">I am sure this will spark some debate however in light of a few posts I have seen I think it is a topic that needs to be addressed. The question at hand, “Which is better, a grounding probe or GFCI protection?”</span></span>
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<span style="font-size: 13px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">First I will touch on the Grounding Probe option. I have to start by saying that I have never used one. By installing a grounding probe, you are providing an external ground path. This may actually increase the odds of harming your livestock. Multiple paths to ground ensure the flow of electrical current will split between these two paths. This could cause current to flow through the water column. Therefore if you were to have a faulty heater at one end of the tank and a grounding probe at the other end, a portion of the current flowing to ground will traverse through the water column to the ground probe. In doing so, it very well could harm the livestock. If the only ground path available is through the cord feeding the faulty equipment, the current should not pass through the water column. Now you may ask about equipment that does not have a ground. That will be addressed by the GFCI protection that I recommend.</span></span>
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<span style="font-size: 13px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">GFCI protection can be accomplished either by a GFCI Circuit Breaker or by a GFCI Outlet at the point of use. A GFCI has the means to measure current flow on the hot conductor, neutral conductor and ground conductor. Under normal conditions, the hot conductor and neutral conductor should have identical current flow while no current should be present on the ground conductor. In the case of equipment using a ground (three prong plug) current would most likely flow on the ground conductor if a short circuit were to occur. The sensing device in the GFI would recognize this and would quickly open the circuit preventing damage or death to livestock and/or humans. In addition to the current witnessed on the ground conductor, there would be less current present on the neutral than on the hot. This is because some of the current is flowing through either the ground wire or though some external path to ground. When the GFI witnesses that the current on the hot conductor and neutral conductor are not equal it will quickly open the circuit. If you have equipment with no ground, the GFCI provides protection through monitoring the amount of current on the neutral conductor as opposed to the hot conductor thereby providing the same level of protection against short circuits.</span></span>
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<span style="font-size: 13px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri;">Many people argue against the use of GFCI protection because if it were to trip while you are not home, you risk losing all of your livestock. My counter argument would be that I would rather lose everything in my tank than lose my life or the lives of my friends and family.</span></span>

 

[grouper therapy]

Question Rich
Is it not possible to have GFCI protected circuit in use while you are working in/on the tank and then switch to a regular circuit while away?

 

[eagle9252]

yes. use a double poll double throw switch. this way you cant have two sources coming to the same place. switched one way or the other way. as i dont reqamend this as you are risking too much and could buck phases.

i would say easiest and safest way is unplug your power strip from one rec. and replug it in another if you want to switch from gfic to non-gfic

Edit:

 

[grouper therapy]

eagle9252;812787 wrote: yes. use a double poll double throw switch. this way you cant have two sources coming to the same place. switched one way or the other way. as i dont reqamend this as you are risking too much and could buck phases.

i would say easiest and safest way is unplug your power strip from one rec. and replug it in another if you want to switch from gfic to non-gfic

Edit:

Please elaborate

Edit: I was thinking single source but switched by -pass with no interruption. I'll pass on the power strips!Garbage IMO

 

[rdnelson]

Pretty much what Charles said. But my question would be "why?" I suppose if you were leaving town and no one would in the house for a few days it would give you piece of mind. If that we're the case I would run an extension cord (sized properly and in good shape) and plug into a different outlet.

I installed two dedicated circuits to my tank. Both have GFI receptacles. If you use the more expensive ones it greatly reduces the odds of inadvertent tripping. Also, if you have a controller with notifications setup you could be warned in case of a power failure and have someone reset the GFI for you if you are away.

One thing I didn't mention.....don't forget about your QT and mixing station. Both are likely to have electricity and water commingling.

 

[grouper therapy]

rdnelson99;812791 wrote: Pretty much what Charles said. But my question would be "why?" I suppose if you were leaving town and no one would in the house for a few days it would give you piece of mind. If that we're the case I would run an extension cord (sized properly and in good shape) and plug into a different outlet.

I installed two dedicated circuits to my tank. Both have GFI receptacles. If you use the more expensive ones it greatly reduces the odds of inadvertent tripping. Also, if you have a controller with notifications setup you could be warned in case of a power failure and have someone reset the GFI for you if you are away.

One thing I didn't mention.....don't forget about your QT and mixing station. Both are likely to have electricity and water commingling.

I'm not thinking power chords and such I guess. There is greater risk of being burnt to death using power strips then electrocution IMO Not my bag. I was thinking no risk of a trip from GFCI. How is flipping a switch different than unplugging from one and plugging into the other?

 

[rdnelson]

grouper therapy;812794 wrote: I'm not thinking power chords and such I guess. There is greater risk of being burnt to death using power strips then electrocution IMO Not my bag. I was thinking no risk of a trip from GFCI

I figured that. But it would be like a steel erector taking off fall protection because he is sitting on the steel instead of walking the steel. It is when you least expect it that crap happens.

 

[rdnelson]

Besides, you stated elsewhere that you change heaters on a regular basis to ensure against failure. Wouldn't the same apply to GFI protection. Spend $20 on it instead of $10 and change it every couple years. The odds of it tripping when you are gone for long periods are small and the trade off is huge. What's your life worth to your family?

 

[ripped tide]

When I work in my tank, I wear boots that keep me from being grounded. I've been working in a tank with no issues that normally shocks other folks.

Not really any dog in this fight, just throwing it out there that you can take extra precautions when working around electricity.

 

[grouper therapy]

rdnelson99;812798 wrote: Besides, you stated elsewhere that you change heaters on a regular basis to ensure against failure. Wouldn't the same apply to GFI protection. Spend $20 on it instead of $10 and change it every couple years. The odds of it tripping when you are gone for long periods are small and the trade off is huge. What's your life worth to your family?

I agree with their use 100%. You can dig up old threads where I posted what you said almost verbatim . I was just thinking it would be better to have the option for those who are nervous about leaving them on the circuit. I want to know more about the buck phases.

Edit:

rdnelson99;812798 wrote: Besides, you stated elsewhere that you change heaters on a regular basis to ensure against failure. Wouldn't the same apply to GFI protection. Spend $20 on it instead of $10 and change it every couple years. The odds of it tripping when you are gone for long periods are small and the trade off is huge. What's your life worth to your family?

Never said ensure but will reduce risk of such.

Edit:

rdnelson99;812798 wrote: Besides, you stated elsewhere that you change heaters on a regular basis to ensure against failure. Wouldn't the same apply to GFI protection. Spend $20 on it instead of $10 and change it every couple years. The odds of it tripping when you are gone for long periods are small and the trade off is huge. What's your life worth to your family?

I guess that is my point why have it on the GFCI and take the risk of it tripping if nobody is there to be electrocuted. Simply switch to that circuit when your are present.

Edit:

rdnelson99;812797 wrote: I figured that. But it would be like a steel erector taking off fall protection because he is sitting on the steel instead of walking the steel. It is when you least expect it that crap happens.

Not if you are not on the steel

 

[rdnelson]

You are correct about not needing to protect someone who isn't there but..... You switch it off and leave, a day later you walk in and see fish floating. What is your first response? Would you rember to switch the protection back on or would you run to the tank and start trying to figure out what's wrong and thereby get shocked (maybe to the point of death) because what killed your fish was current flowing through the tank? Also, what if your child or grandchild stumbles into the room while you are not around? Are you certain they will not touch the tank as you have told them?

Dylan you are correct and that is a good precaution but what if you have a hand in the tank and your elbow brushes up against the metal TV stand next to the tank. I can think of hundreds of scenarios where you can say "yeah but" but the surest protection is the GFI.

 

[mherman]

For my two cents I would recommend a redundant heater setup using two GFI's and with at least one one heater on each circuit, one set at least two degrees less than the other. If your primary fails and trips the secondary will kick on . This while being at a lower temp will at least keep every thing alive.

 

[grouper therapy]

rdnelson99;812809 wrote: You are correct about not needing to protect someone who isn't there but..... You switch it off and leave, a day later you walk in and see fish floating. What is your first response? Would you rember to switch the protection back on or would you run to the tank and start trying to figure out what's wrong and thereby get shocked (maybe to the point of death) because what killed your fish was current flowing through the tank? Also, what if your child or grandchild stumbles into the room while you are not around? Are you certain they will not touch the tank as you have told them?

Dylan you are correct and that is a good precaution but what if you have a hand in the tank and your elbow brushes up against the metal TV stand next to the tank. I can think of hundreds of scenarios where you can say "yeah but" but the surest protection is the GFI.

Those are all real possibilities/probabilities Rich for sure. I was thinking along the lines of a extended absence (several days). I don't think the children should have access to the tanks with or without a GFCI. That is another story.

 

[rdnelson]

grouper therapy;812814 wrote: Those are all real possibilities/probabilities Rich for sure. I was thinking along the lines of a extended absence (several days). I don't think the children should have access to the tanks with or without a GFCI. That is another story.

I agree but my point is that unexpected things happen all the time. I have lost co-workers because of just that sorta of thing. Safety's were in place but because of the situation at hand they were disabled and someone forgot to put them back in place. To quote Ron White "You can't fix stupid."

 

[eagle9252]

I won't explain it as good as rich but here goes In houses you have 2 hots. If the 2 hots or feed touch each other it will spark and or arc.

After thinking you could use a single pole double throw this would have 1 hot coming n 1 way it would feed a regular receptacle switch the other way it could feed the gfi receptacle I prefer using DJ strips since they have individual switches,

Edit: I won't explain it as good as rich but here goes I'll house you have 2 hots. If the 2 hots or feed touch each other it will spark and or arc.

After thinking you could use a single pole double throw this would have 1 hot tubbing in 1 way it would fade a regular receptacle switch the other way it could feed the gfi receptacle I prefer using DJ strips since they have individual switches

 

[grouper therapy]

rdnelson99;812815 wrote: I agree but my point is that unexpected things happen all the time. I have lost co-workers because of just that sorta of thing. Safety's were in place but because of the situation at hand they were disabled and someone forgot to put them back in place. To quote Ron White "You can't fix stupid."

And if you protect "stupid" it will spread and multiply. We are the only creatures on earth that do. I've never lost a co worker but I have transported them in the back seat and their fingers in the front seat on ice to the hospital because of the same thing.

 

[rdnelson]

grouper therapy;812818 wrote: And if you protect "stupid" it will spread and multiply. We are the only creatures on earth that do. I've never lost a co worker but I have transported them in the back seat and their fingers in the front seat on ice to the hospital because of the same thing.

I figured that was the case. Anyone working with equipment or around electricity can usually tell stories. Well at least the lucky ones are still around to tell the story.

I don't worry so much about someone like you because I think you know enough to implement the propped precautions. It is the guy perking and reading this thread I worry about.

 

[rdnelson]

eagle9252;812816 wrote: I won't explain it as good as rich but here goes In houses you have 2 hots. If the 2 hots or feed touch each other it will spark and or arc.

After thinking you could use a single pole double throw this would have 1 hot coming n 1 way it would feed a regular receptacle switch the other way it could feed the gfi receptacle I prefer using DJ strips since they have individual switches,

Edit: I won't explain it as good as rich but here goes I'll house you have 2 hots. If the 2 hots or feed touch each other it will spark and or arc.

After thinking you could use a single pole double throw this would have 1 hot tubbing in 1 way it would fade a regular receptacle switch the other way it could feed the gfi receptacle I prefer using DJ strips since they have individual switches

You are right and wrong. As usual. Hebeheheh

If they are fed from different phases you would have an arc and hopefully trip the breaker. But, if you used a 3 way switch you can make it work easily with only one phase. Run the hot wire to the common terminal on the three way. One of the switched terminals feeds the GFI terminal and the other feeds the standard receptacle. When the switch is in one position the GFI is hot and the standard receptacle is dead. Reverse the switch and you reverse which receptacle is hot.

 

[grouper therapy]

Can a GFCI breaker in sub be placed in series with a regular breaker and then bypassed? I am laying out my fish room and will have receptacles placed and was planning on using Sub-panel With GFCI breakers. Feed leaves the regular breaker and either goes through the GFCI breaker or around based on the switch. Am I making sense?

 

[eagle9252]

Yes. Same thing but you have 2 hots in and 1 out
I would think the 3 way switch would work as stated but its not as heavy duty as the single pole double throw.

As for the phase part. Most dont understand houses are single phase with 2 hots and most commercial is 3 phase with 3 hots. Ether way if you take hot wire a and hot wire b and touch them together it will be sparks
But wire a and another wire a would be fine but 2 breakers feeding same circuit is not good


Did. Not see the series part. You would have to have two separate feeds