Going to the beach!!

[jmaneyapanda]

chrisjet;51800 wrote: xyz are you serious "its harmful to the environment." Of course its harmful - so what makes it morally right to do it if you have a "license." Whats the difference?? Its still leaving the ocean. Hundreds of companies rape and pillage reefs and oceans to make a profit from you and I. Just doesnt make much since. My opinion is, if you go snorkeling and find some snails, LR, starfish and maybe some other stuff go for it! If you dont other people will and do! Of course i would not rip corals from rocks or anything like that. Just dont get caught. Those rules are in place for mainly people making a living off that stuff. Not someone who gets a couple snails and a couple pounds of LR. I am sure people will flame what i say. But remeber you are in this hobby so it would be a double standard to say I am wrong.

Chris- you cannot look at this as black and white. It's not like there is two sides to this: "Nothing should ever come out of the ocean" or "Take whatever you want, wherever you want, however you want". There is innumerous grey areas in between.
Will you really claim you would buy a fish that was cyanide or dynamite collected? And it wouldn't matter to you? Or would put a nurse shark into a 55 gallon tank? These are the grey areas that matter, that create the ethics and morals of our hobby.

Collection laws are in place to preserve the resources, not to limit you or I. Advising people to neglect or intentionally ignore laws and restrictions make that person no better than the poacher, or fisherman who kills 100 fish and corals with cyanide to sell 1.

 

[jetchris]

well i guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Its a huge double standard to be in this hobby and then say "oh save the oceans and dont take anything out yourself." Like i said before if you buy from a LFS - whats the difference?? You are still supporting taking from the oceans. I could give a rats *** about permits and licenses. Panda no I would not buy a fish if i knew it was cought with cyanide. Because i know there are health probs involved with the fish. Take global warming for instance people b itch about it all the time and whine about it. But those are the same people driving $50,000 suvs "V8's" who spend $500 a month on gas etc. Or people that whine about illegal immigration. Then those same people get an addition put on there house and they go with the lowest quote. Of course whoever has the lowest quote is going to be using illegal mexicans. But what do you care the job is still being done and saving you money. Huge double standard in this hobby. Debate it all you want we are all guilty of it.</em>

 

[nishant3789]

so basically the question is, would you guys pay more for an aquacultured fish/ fish collected by some sort of company that can prove it collects in a manner that keeps resources renewable?? I agree with chrisjet in that we are all really spoiled by wanting bottom dollar on everything, not some of his other points so much though. I think there is definetely a duty to establish and follow some form of morals and ethics, as there should be with ALL living creatures.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

chrisjet;51905 wrote: . Its a huge double standard to be in this hobby and then say "oh save the oceans and dont take anything out yourself." Like i said before if you buy from a LFS - whats the difference?? .</em>

Chris, I dont expect to change your mind, or similar, but I do not think you understand the issues I am mentioning. First off, no one has said "dont take anything out yourself". What was said is "if you take something out, follow the rules that are established". There is a HUGE difference between the two. That is what at least my issue is about. Collection from the wild does NOT equal ecological destruction. UNREGULATED collection from the wild does. And that is what you are promoting. How do you think the laws for collection are created? Just some fat cat sitting in an office saying "well, I will limit collection for this item with no rhyme or reason"? As Cameron alluded, there is so much more that goes into a collection law than that. There are reasons such laws are in place, and there are restrictions to collection to meet those reasons.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Nishant3789;51909 wrote: so basically the question is, would you guys pay more for an aquacultured fish/ fish collected by some sort of company that can prove it collects in a manner that keeps resources renewable?? I agree with chrisjet in that we are all really spoiled by wanting bottom dollar on everything, not some of his other points so much though. I think there is definetely a duty to establish and follow some form of morals and ethics, as there should be with ALL living creatures.

Nishant, you work in the industry, so I am sure you are familiar with MAC certification, which is exactly what you are mentioning. A way to ecologically and effectively stabilize collection methods, and collector stability as well. Would I pay more for a properly collected fish? Absolutely, without a doubt.

A comment about a previous post also- you had mentioned that captive breeding for freshwaters is quite prevalent, but not so much in saltwater. It is not due to economics, but instead biology. Many marine species have pelagic larval phases, which makes culture nearly impossible. Frank Baensch at RCT in Hawaii actually mastered culture of marine angelfish, and despite the price tag sometimes 10 times the price of a wild fish, sold out his batches almost immediately. However, NO ONE can currently culture tangs, butterflies, wrasses, etc, because of the lack of scientific process. Hopefully that will be improved, in which case, perhaps those species will near the avaibility of tank raised clownfish (which now regularly uncut the prices of wild caught clownfish).

 

[george]

fftopic:

Please stick to the subject at hand:

Linda Lee;51811 wrote:

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[jaydm93teg]

well first of all guys didnt mean to make this an argument type thread. I am NOT in florida I am in St. Simons, GA still. I do have a GA. fishing license but what i meant in terms of bringing things home is LR maybe some hermits or starfish just anything random I found NO fish or coral or anything like that as I am doing a FOWLR tank.

But it was just a random question kinda just seeing what could be done. But there was a lot of good info. and advice that came from it.

Thanks again guys and I will prob. NOT bring anything unless I see a Small Cool looking piece of rock or something.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

jaydm93teg;51962 wrote: well first of all guys didnt mean to make this an argument type thread. I am NOT in florida I am in St. Simons, GA still. I do have a GA. fishing license but what i meant in terms of bringing things home is LR maybe some hermits or starfish just anything random I found NO fish or coral or anything like that as I am doing a FOWLR tank.

But it was just a random question kinda just seeing what could be done. But there was a lot of good info. and advice that came from it.

Thanks again guys and I will prob. NOT bring anything unless I see a Small Cool looking piece of rock or something.

Collecting rock from Florida is illegal. I think the smallest acceptable size is like 1 square inch, but dont hold me to that. Otherwise, look at the links George gave you.

 

[jaydm93teg]

thats great everyone keeps talking about fla. I AM NOT GOING TO FLA.!!!!!!!

I am in GEORGIA!!!!! its called St. Simons. In the atlantic off the cost near brunswick.

 

[nishant3789]

jmaneyapanda;51924 wrote: Nishant, you work in the industry, so I am sure you are familiar with MAC certification, which is exactly what you are mentioning. A way to ecologically and effectively stabilize collection methods, and collector stability as well. Would I pay more for a properly collected fish? Absolutely, without a doubt.

A comment about a previous post also- you had mentioned that captive breeding for freshwaters is quite prevalent, but not so much in saltwater. It is not due to economics, but instead biology. Many marine species have pelagic larval phases, which makes culture nearly impossible. Frank Baensch at RCT in Hawaii actually mastered culture of marine angelfish, and despite the price tag sometimes 10 times the price of a wild fish, sold out his batches almost immediately. However, NO ONE can currently culture tangs, butterflies, wrasses, etc, because of the lack of scientific process. Hopefully that will be improved, in which case, perhaps those species will near the avaibility of tank raised clownfish (which now regularly uncut the prices of wild caught clownfish).

Yes this is entirely true! And although i hate to defend many pharmecutical companies, some of what they say is true when they claim that the increase in price of drugs is due to the money needed for research for new drugs. In that same sense, if we can support research based companies such as ORA, etc, one day they may find a way to overcome the difficulties of breeding marine fish in captivity.

and to the OP, sorry for hijacking your thread, I will try to make a new one tonight, this is a very very important topic to be discussing indeed and I am glad it hasnt gotten TOO heated. Some very good points have been made. I wish you the best of luck with your collecting, just make sure you do the research as to the laws and regulations first.

Nishant

 

[xyzpdq0121]

Georgia or Flordia it really does not matter IMHO... You are still taking something from the coast that you should no be IMHO...

 

[nishant3789]

brandon: would it be okay if he did all his research first, and made sure everything he did was legal?

 

[xyzpdq0121]

IMHO: No.....

1) He is mixing Atlantic biotope and Pacific (99% of our hobby is Pacific for a reason)

As I said earlier:
2) unless you know what is safe, you risk putting something you do not want in there Live stock collected less then the recommended 2 miles off shore contains some pretty nasty contaminates

3) it harms the environment, IMHO

4) good luck keeping it alive while bringing it home So now you just took something that is going to die

5) your tank is a tropical reef, flordia/georgia is not! Why stop there, Northern california has some awsome looking red anemone, they are cold water but why should we care, it will look great in your tank till it dies. Or how about that cute looking catalina goby that is cold water but people have tried to make tropic for 15+ years with no luck, why not take a few more and sacrafice them.

6) If I am not mistaken, Atlantic coral is protected under fedral law, not just state so now you got the feds hot on your tail.

So you ask me if it would be alright if he did his research first? I change my mind, yes it would be ok, but his research is going to tell him not to do it so it is a mute point!

Last let me just say this. I am not sure if you are aware but all along the eastern coast and into the carribean there is a plague of lionfish spreading. "Lionfish?!?" you say, "but arn't those Pacific fish?" Yep they are and they have no place in the Atlantic. They are destroying the ecosystem. "How did they swim all that way?" They didn't, it is believed that some nice reef keepers in the Georgia/Flordia area decided to break down their tank and let their favorite lionfish back to the wild. So, someone who thought they were doing something not too bad has now endangered and impacted an entire ecosystem forever. Another case in point, Why do you think Caulepera is illegal in California? Because people were dumping their tank water with a fuge that contained that Macro algae into the water runoff systems. There is nothing there that eats that stuff and now for the past 10 years it is running rapid and spreading like Kudzo. All because reefers did not think about their actions.

Do what you want with your tank, but when you start to give me a bad name or impact the hobby for the rest of us, that is when I have a problem!

[/soapbox]

 

[nishant3789]

I am not trying to give you a bad name, just trying to get some healthy discussion going, sorry if it was taken in the wrong way. I think what chris was trying to say was that how is the enviormental impact, nevermind the laws, of taking certain things from one part of the ocean different from another part? yeah i agree it is stupid to put something into a tank that you cant identify and cant care for, but buying something from an lfs does not guarentee that it was collected in a humane or reef friendly manner. Having a reef tank like it or not, does hurt the ocean, possibly and probably more than collecting a few rocks or hermit crabs or fish from the local seashore. Can we do anything about it? Probably. How can we do something about it? I really dont have an answer yet, but I am looking into some wholesalers that collect in accordance with CITES.

 

[xyzpdq0121]

No, I do not think you are trying to give ME a bad name... Not at all, that came off wrong... I was saying that practices, like collecting for own personal use without being educated, and not being a responsible reefer give US a bad name... It allows people (fat cats) to point the finger at us as THE source of the problem.

I personally, buy aquacultured when I can... I also only put into my tank what I am sure I can keep alive so that no more have to be collected then are needed. I do not think that the vast majority or corals collect are an inpact to the environment if collected properly. Lucky for us, and the reefs, The vast majority of corals seem to be collected in a less damaging way due to education in place like Fiji and the south pacific. Using poision to catch fish is not as common as it was 5 years ago, which is good. Heck, I learned how to treat a fish that has been caught with poision just so I could give it a fighting chance in my tank.

I think your argument is a slippery slope there. Where do you draw the line?!? So it is ok to take a hermit crab, but what about 100 of them to set up my entire tank? What about 5,000 so I can come back to the ARC and give them to all of yu for your tanks! How about a few look down fish for Sals new 1000gal tank?!? While I am at it, I know there are a few maze brains there that are about 6" across that Cameron would love to have in his tank! Where do you draw the line? If you are going to allow it fine but you have offered no clear direction on what is right and what is wrong. Why do you think there are fishing limits and laws, hunting seasons and bans of atlantic coral.

So I hate to say it, untill I see an extensive impact study on the coast of Georgia and the impact of privite colection of hermits, I think it is wrong to take from the ocean on the Georgia coast. Leave that to the people that have the permits to collect and are monitored on how much they collect.

 

[nishant3789]

i agree there is definetely a line that needs to be drawn and in fact there are lines already drawn by the ga hunting and fishing dept.

while it is true that there have been several changes in fiji, etc, you have to remember that polynesia and micronesia and melanesia are made up of thousands of islands with probably near that many tiny island nations. I would really doubt it if anywhere near the majority of the people were following CITES regulations. Cyanide fishing has been reduced, your right, but drag net fishing, etc is still pretty common. many of those collecting the actual corals do not really care about the enviorment, a piece of coral or a rare fish may mean the next meal to that collector. I would venture to say that for each fish that we buy from the lfs, probably 10 or 20 times that number died in transit, etc.

 

[xyzpdq0121]

So collecting your own from the georgia coast is a better option?

So here is what I will allow and not call it morally wrong....

The OP must do the following:

He must contact the hunting and fishing department and get the permits needed and learn the laws pertaining to collection of livestock. Then he must learn about what he is collecting and be able to ID the creature from the field. Then he must be able to transport the creature back to his home, alive. Then he must take the heater out of that tank that only have LR and sand in it and go buy a chiller. He had better read up on non-tropical marine fish care and captive systems. Not much has been published on the topic but best of luck in what he can find. He will not have a reef tank because to buy/trade/collect/ship/transport Atlantic coral is illegal. If he can give said creatures the type of homes that are needed to thrive (not survive) and do it legally, then more power to him and I say go for it... (BTW: I reserve the right to call the collection of rock a moral problem because it is not a readily renuable resource.) But I would bet you a dime to a dollar that the OP nor anyone else is willing to do that/


On a side note: I have seen some cold marine water tanks and they are awsome... So set one up and collect a georgia coast tank on your own, just make sure you do it leaglly and without impact.

 

[ouling]

<span style="color: black;">Dumping fish is a whole different story, and I agree with Brandon that it is very very very bad to release anything to the wild that isn't already dead. I either kill it, or eat it, or feed it and never release it.</span>

<span style="color: black;">

jmaneyapanda;51964 wrote: Collecting rock from

</span>

jmaneyapanda;51964 wrote: <span style="color: black;">Florida</span><span style="color: black;"> is illegal. I think the smallest acceptable size is like 1 square inch, but dont hold me to that. Otherwise, look at the links George gave you.</span>

<span style="color: black;">I dont' know where you get that collecting rocks is illegal, I would be very interested to see that one.</span>

<span style="color: black;">Key West</span><span style="color: black;"> have bolders of corals fossiles laying on the side of the road. I seriously doubt it's illegal to take them. </span>

<span style="color: black;">

chrisjet;51905 wrote: I could give a rats *** about permits and licenses. Panda no I would not buy a fish if i knew it was cought with cyanide. Because i know there are health probs involved with the fish. Take global warming for instance people b itch about it all the time and whine about it. But those are the same people driving $50,000 suvs "V8's" who spend $500 a month on gas etc. Or people that whine about illegal immigration. Then those same people get an addition put on there house and they go with the lowest quote. Of course whoever has the lowest quote is going to be using illegal mexicans. But what do you care the job is still being done and saving you money. Huge double standard in this hobby. Debate it all you want we are all guilty of it.</em>

</span>

<span style="color: black;">Character is what we do in the dark. I bet I can go to anyones house and find 50%+ of their stuff is wild collected. Take the GA Aquarium for example. They talk about conservation all day, and how the whale shark exhibit is helping the cause of the creature in captivity without any actual proof that anyone looks at the exibit is more concerned about conservation than they were before the 4 hour line. It is a marvelous thing that they purchased these animals from </span><span style="color: black;">Taiwan</span><span style="color: black;"> whalers and the majority of their fish being wild caught. Whether it is sustainable harvest we won't go there. I don&#8217;t think you took 49 years of your life to calculate the 1034983544 variables in the chaos mathematic equation in every scientific field that relates to fish before you gave me your answer. </span>
<span style="color: black;">I doubt if ChrisJet goes to FL and get a rock or two it would be absolutely unsustainable. The pressure we put on collection is very high, and if we keep buying it, they'll keep getting it. Business is business; most people do not care enough about the marine environment when the opportunity to make money presents itself. We all saw at the meeting what happened at </span><span style="color: black;">Fiji</span><span style="color: black;"> with the live rock harvesting, it was legally done but seriously unsustainable.</span>

<span style="font-size: 13px;"><span style="font-family: Times New Roman;">Your big car and the coal required to make them is doing way more harm than collecting a shell or two off FL beaches. </span></span>

<span style="font-family: Times New Roman;"><span style="font-size: 13px;">There are plenty of worth while things to argue about other than how collecting rocks off FL is killing the enviroment. How about making this hobby illegal? Wouldn't that be better? STFU and stop crying about the smallest things when there are better ways you can actually help the "enviroment." How about making AC illegal? Or ration the power usage or raise the minimal gas mileage requirement? or raise taxes on luxury items such as big houses, boats, and big cars? How about the raising the death tax to support the agencies like the EPA? </span></span>

 

[ouling]

What I would suggest you put in your tank is actually rocks. There are plenty of coral rocks near construction sites and on the road. It is not illegal to take rocks that is 2943839ft from the water. It is the same as the rocks they call "live rocks" and is completely reef safe. I wouldn't advise you to take anything out of the water. I had my boat down there and the coast guard is pretty serious about these things.

like camron said, laws are always too late, and it responds only to some kind of crisis. I would not take anything out the FL protected water (GA aquarium does that for us). But if you take a shell or a few hermits or a rock or two off the road, it does less harm than if you would to purchase this as live rocks from Fiji.

Nishant made the point about live collected species so I won't go there. But I definitely agree with him about how "sustainable" it is and how humain the procedure.

People in the poor countries collect fish because they need to eat; You buy these fish/coral/rocks because it's your hobby.

 

[ouling]

BTW ALLL my corals are aquacultred from frags. ALL OF THEM. Only 1 of my fish is wild caught and it have died for cynide reasons. 50% of my "live rocks" are from a construction site off Marathon Key.