HLLE/HLLD or Hole in the Head: a theory
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I was talking to Chris about this yesterday, and it made me wonder about the long-term effects of t5/pc lighting versus metal halides. I haven't seen anything that says whether fish and coral do better in the long run under the added uv given off by metal halides, but it just got me wondering...
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Perhaps Im missing it, but where are we making the correlation from vitamin D definciency to HLLE? True, our fish may</em> be Vit D deficient, but how does this cause erosion of the lateral line, a sensory system? In reptiles (and all other animals, for which Im aware), deficiency is D cause metabolic growth issues- namely skeltal abnormalities and defects. Why would it not cause the same in fish? Why would it target a specific sensory system?
@Jenn- yes, we've been through this before. While I certainly do not doubt that fish that have been found with HLLE have had voltage in the system, I would also convincingly argue that fish in systems without voltage show HLLE, and fish in system with voltage, do not show HLLE. I think the leap of faith with that is a bit too unfounded, IMHO.
FWIW- Jey Hemdal, at teh Toledo Zoo, is currently working on a study to pinpoint a more contemporary and researched reason for HLLE, of which his primary suspect at this time is not dietary, but environmnetal carbon.
@Jenn- yes, we've been through this before. While I certainly do not doubt that fish that have been found with HLLE have had voltage in the system, I would also convincingly argue that fish in systems without voltage show HLLE, and fish in system with voltage, do not show HLLE. I think the leap of faith with that is a bit too unfounded, IMHO.
FWIW- Jey Hemdal, at teh Toledo Zoo, is currently working on a study to pinpoint a more contemporary and researched reason for HLLE, of which his primary suspect at this time is not dietary, but environmnetal carbon.
skriz
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HLLE is most definitely reversible. Here are some before and after shots:
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This sailfin looked like it had been eaten alive. It was in a miserable state. Using a top secret cure, here's what it looked like within a week..yep, ONE WEEK.
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This sailfin looked like it had been eaten alive. It was in a miserable state. Using a top secret cure, here's what it looked like within a week..yep, ONE WEEK.
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he rubs them in special areas.
Jeremy,
In my original post there is a good synopsis of the breadth of areas vitamin D is known to affect, that may be read in the abstract of the third reference. Please review it.
In short, older references limit vitamin D's activity to the role of growth regulation, due to then identified mechanisms involing calcium metabolism.
It is now known that vitamin D is an immune system regulator and in fact a hormone with wide ranging effects in animals. Cancer's, colds/flu, cardio-vascular disease/peripheral artery disease, auto-immune syndrome's and disease like lupus, mental disorders like Alzheimers, and degenerative nerve disorders/MS have all been shown to correlate to serum vitamin D levels.
It is further speculated, if not proven, that some of the other vitamin's abilities to manifest their effects may be regulated by systems known to be activated and/or regulated by sufficient vitamin D levels.
Also, resident microbial flora/fauna have dramatic effects on body health. Recent literature cites a direct relationships between certain resident microbes and their high higher animals/hosts overall health and/or disease. Vitamin D has demonstrated a stong inflammatory regulation mechanism correlation, as well. Eg- Inflammatory bowel disease.
It is interesting to note that many of these disease states correlate strongly with latitude (distance from the equator) and/or winter time. This was puzzling for years, until theories emerged and were later validated via experimentation. These showed a strong correlation with sunlight levels.
What does this mean? That animals deprived of sufficient vitamin D, such as living further from the equator, or during winter, or exposed to inadequate artificial light (ie- indoors, or in a fish tank) may suffer from the above, or other as yet unidentified disease.
I have not offered a direct correlation. I have proposed a theory. I believe that vitamin D deficiency will become known as one of the medical/scientific breakthroughs of the 21st century. That's how much I believe this. I am not prone to irrational exuberance, btw. However, there are many major fish oil and vitamin D studies underway, so stay tuned.
FWIW- Please, do not believe me. Go research this yourselves.
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Yeah, Bill, I did read that. I was merely stating that the most obvious defects seen in every other organism, is skeletal deformation. I know it affects other systems and areas, but it is almost always manifested as skeletal anomolies in severe cases. So, why, in marien fish, are we deducing it is manifesting itself so severely, and ultimately, as HLLE, with little to no skeletal involvemnet?
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Then why did my Regale Tang come down with it and I never ran carbon until the past year?:confused2: I always relied on WC and decent husbandry. I run carbon now with my SPS tank, and still not allot and the fish has made a 180 turn around. Salt? Vitamin C and/or high quality pellets? Witch ever it is,(this is my major changes) its working. My hopes are in 12 weeks for all scars to be completely gone. I only assumed from what little bit that I have read that its was vitamin deficiency.:unsure: I will say that when you look at my fish since the addition of vitamin c there colors, skin, and scales are just mind blowing, I have never seen such intense color and definition on the lines where the colors meet.
I forgot one change! I switched to Ushio bulbs from XM! This is another variable! I am only looking for the answer just as anyone else.
I forgot one change! I switched to Ushio bulbs from XM! This is another variable! I am only looking for the answer just as anyone else.
An example,
Humans, it is now known, suffer from a variety of maladies all correlated to low serum vitamin D, but no 'direct proof'. When they get old, they fall and break their hip's. In fact, what has been discovered is that their hip broke, and they then fell, due to osteomalacia. Guess what? In children it's called...RICKETS, or 'a softening of the bone due to inadequate calcification/mineralization'. Many of them meanwhile, had also been suffering from colds/flu, cancers, cardio-vascular disease, neurdegenerative disease, alzheimers and autoimmune disorders. All of these apparently due to low vitamin D. There was an underlying structural/bone issue all along, while these other diseases popped-up appearing to be unrelated, when in fact they are. With fish, most of us simply don't have them long enough for any bone disease to manifest itself, only the 'other' diseases we deal with commonly-IMO.
I am suggesting</em> that Lateral Line Disorders in fishes 'may' be a form of autoimmune disease. Captive fish have been shown to be more susceptible to disease in general. Many have posted on here that they found reducing stress to help with treatment of a variety of fish disorders. This, to me, speaks of a possibly comprimised immune system (organisms on the edge, so to speak).
These fish that get' Hole in the Head' or Head and Lateral Line Disease (or HLLD), often do so with a lack of any other explaination. This type of syndrome is mirrored in human and</em> other animal diseases (lack of apparent cause). I'm a 'root cause' kinda guy. I believe there is always a smoking gun. Like I said in an earlier post, "it's starting to smell like gunpowder".
In my research, I discovered that most vitamin D in the oceans is produced via phytoplankton. This source is then passed along, up the food chain. I don't know many that are maintaining healthy populations of phytoplanktors in their tanks, though many of us dream of it. It may be possible to supplement via nori, etc.
It's interesting to note that fish oil has significant amounts of vitamin D.
Humans, it is now known, suffer from a variety of maladies all correlated to low serum vitamin D, but no 'direct proof'. When they get old, they fall and break their hip's. In fact, what has been discovered is that their hip broke, and they then fell, due to osteomalacia. Guess what? In children it's called...RICKETS, or 'a softening of the bone due to inadequate calcification/mineralization'. Many of them meanwhile, had also been suffering from colds/flu, cancers, cardio-vascular disease, neurdegenerative disease, alzheimers and autoimmune disorders. All of these apparently due to low vitamin D. There was an underlying structural/bone issue all along, while these other diseases popped-up appearing to be unrelated, when in fact they are. With fish, most of us simply don't have them long enough for any bone disease to manifest itself, only the 'other' diseases we deal with commonly-IMO.
I am suggesting</em> that Lateral Line Disorders in fishes 'may' be a form of autoimmune disease. Captive fish have been shown to be more susceptible to disease in general. Many have posted on here that they found reducing stress to help with treatment of a variety of fish disorders. This, to me, speaks of a possibly comprimised immune system (organisms on the edge, so to speak).
These fish that get' Hole in the Head' or Head and Lateral Line Disease (or HLLD), often do so with a lack of any other explaination. This type of syndrome is mirrored in human and</em> other animal diseases (lack of apparent cause). I'm a 'root cause' kinda guy. I believe there is always a smoking gun. Like I said in an earlier post, "it's starting to smell like gunpowder".
In my research, I discovered that most vitamin D in the oceans is produced via phytoplankton. This source is then passed along, up the food chain. I don't know many that are maintaining healthy populations of phytoplanktors in their tanks, though many of us dream of it. It may be possible to supplement via nori, etc.
It's interesting to note that fish oil has significant amounts of vitamin D.
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Oh, I misunderstood you position. However, I must say, I disagree with your main premise. I do not, in any way, feel that "Captive fish have been shown to be more susceptible to disease in general". I feel that disease is far more prevalent in captive conditions than in the wild. I believe the fish are no more susceptible. In other animals we keep, if they are kept in conditions prolific with disease, they have a far greater likelihood of contracting that disease, than if kept in a situation with far less prevalent disease.
I guess Im not getting the link here. I understand Vit D deficiency, I understand the metabolic ailments demonstrative of this, and I understand the auto immune conditions. However, I dont understand how were getting from this to HLLE. Why not popeye caused by Vit D defiency? Or lymphocystis caused by Vit D deficiency? Or fin rot? Or....etc etc etc. How did we get to HLLE?
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mikesommers;538759 wrote: Then why did my Regale Tang come down with it and I never ran carbon until the past year?:confused2: I always relied on WC and decent husbandry. I run carbon now with my SPS tank, and still not allot and the fish has made a 180 turn around. Salt? Vitamin C and/or high quality pellets? Witch ever it is,(this is my major changes) its working. My hopes are in 12 weeks for all scars to be completely gone. I only assumed from what little bit that I have read that its was vitamin deficiency.:unsure: I will say that when you look at my fish since the addition of vitamin c there colors, skin, and scales are just mind blowing, I have never seen such intense color and definition on the lines where the colors meet.
I forgot one change! I switched to Ushio bulbs from XM! This is another variable! I am only looking for the answer just as anyone else.
I dont think youre quite understanding the involvement of carbon (as suggested). Were talking carbon microfines. But, that is currently under study, so we shall see.
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So if fish oil contains D3, could one add this to their food?
Wasn't there a thread about the guy with the 40yo tank, and he uses fish oil in his food?
Wasn't there a thread about the guy with the 40yo tank, and he uses fish oil in his food?
I agree, why not?
There is simply too little data, much less research. At this point, it's just a theory.
The fact that we have posts every day regarding various fish maladies tells us something, I believe.
We don't see many sick fish on the reef, but then they get eaten quickly too.
It would be good to know if HLLD is even seen on a reef.
I found evidence that early human (hunter/gatherers) skeletal analysis rarely shows evidence of the cancers, diabetes, cv disease, etc. we deal with today. What changed?
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Chasing your meal down with a club for a weapon, dressed in a porcupine loin cloth tends to offer a healthier body:lol2::lol2:
