Hydor Korlia pumps almost killed me

[cameron]

Short answer run a ground probe and GFCI. It should be common sense and it could save your life.

I feel a debate coming on...

George;36394 wrote: Do grounding probes not cause electrolysis?

The probe doesn't cause electrolysis it is a component of electrolysis if it exists in a tank at all. Only if DC current is being introduced in amounts smaller than what would trip a GFCI (assuming you have one) would this occur. So it is possible that a ground could make this ultimately possible, but this is not always a good/bad thing depending on how you look at it. Some salinity probes do the same thing with no ill effect.

George;36394 wrote: Nobody wants to be zapped putting their hand in the tank, but by the same token saltwater has a natural voltage and electrical current as well as induced current from lights/pumps(submersed and not)/etc. Adding a grounding probe will certainly create a circuit pathway even if you don't have any leaking devices. I'm not arguing against them since their value as a safety device far outweighs any possible added current flow, but I'd think there should be some attention given to placement.

Probe doesn't create current, but it does give it somewhere to go. There was some yahoo running around telling people what probes do in a tank with a little science to back him up and then stating you shouldn't use one. I am going to call him an idiot because he is/was stating some truths that ultimately might get someone killed or equipment damaged. Electricity takes the path of least resistance as I stated earlier. Without a grounding probe, you can become the grounding probe. In some instances, a large current can exist in a tank and not trip a GFCI as the current is balanced and not surged. Sticking your hand in the tank can cause X amount of amps to pop through you for around 5-10ms or longer depending on your GFCI as GFCIs are not created all equal. With a ground probe, this is virtually impossible (although it is theoritically possible but very unlikely). As soon as the current is in the tank, it partially flows out the grounding probe switing the amp on the GFCI circuit out of balance and pop goes the GFCI. Next up the person who wrote the article assumes no equipment exists in the tank that can ground the tank. These days this is unlikely in all but the simplest setup. If you run a ReefKeeper or AquaController with probes in the water, you run the risk of damaging your equipment if the current can overcome the resistance of the probe circuit.

George;36394 wrote: If you don't have any wires in your tank at all... say probes, pumps, etc and maybe 20 years ago and it doesn't give it somewhere to go. It does give voltage somewhere to go, but won't help you much with current.

Voltage doesn't go anywhere in that sense. It is a pathway for amps. If current exists in the tank, the probe will allow it to funnel out the tank. A probe doesn't however shut down the generation of current in the tank and that is what the GFCI does.

George;36394 wrote: Also, due to the nature of saltwater, any voltage/current check should start off with a baseline measurement with all equipment off otherwise you'll always appear to have a voltage leak.

Hmmm... yes somewhat... errr... Induction does cause some form of a "natural" voltage but if you have a measurable voltage in your tank, you should probably try and fix it. A ground probe does buy you time to fix a serious stray voltage problem.

Pretty good article on testing

 

[cameron]

leveldrummer;36481 wrote: ground probes are a good idea, but i would a gfci is much better, grounding the tank only completes the circuit so you dont get shocked, i would rather get shocked and have a gfci trip so it doesnt kill me and fix the problem, than have stray voltage running through my tank and causing all kinds of stress and other problems.

I will always make the assumption (however wrong that assumption is) that people run a GFCI on the tank. It falls between idiocy and stupidity not to run GFCI and I dare someone to try to argue against that point. Also, a GFCI doesn't prevent you from getting hit with a lethal current. With a probe, it virtually guarantees you protection from lethal current. You should be using both.

 

[ouling]

why would you do anything to circumvent the chance of premature death? And take away the rush that is found in keeping a fish tank?

 

[vettesarebest]

Well Cameron,
You sure have talked me into getting a grounding probe!

 

[george]

Cameron;36510 wrote: The probe doesn't cause electrolysis it is a component of electrolysis if it exists in a tank at all. Only if DC current is being introduced in amounts smaller than what would trip a GFCI (assuming you have one) would this occur.

Electrolysis occurs just fine with AC current. The anode and cathode switch at 60Hz, so you get both reactions on both ends of the circuit. Sticking a lamp cord into salt water will demonstrate this. Actual products depend on ions and current.

Cameron;36510 wrote: Probe doesn't create current, but it does give it somewhere to go. There was some yahoo running around telling people what probes do in a tank with a little science to back him up and then stating you shouldn't use one.

I never said it created current. I said it created a pathway. You will get ion flow over time from the very small, but present, flow of electrons because saltwater has a higher potential than ground. Unless grounding probes have some special construction, that also means you'll get a slow electrolysis.

I also never said don't use a grounding probe. I said some attention should be paid to placement of the probe.

Cameron;36510 wrote:

If you don't have any wires in your tank at all... say probes, pumps, etc and maybe 20 years ago and it doesn't give it somewhere to go. It does give voltage somewhere to go, but won't help you much with current.

Voltage doesn't go anywhere in that sense. It is a pathway for amps. If current exists in the tank, the probe will allow it to funnel out the tank. A probe doesn't however shut down the generation of current in the tank and that is what the GFCI does.

Who are you quoting here? Not me.

Cameron;36510 wrote: Hmmm... yes somewhat... errr... Induction does cause some form of a "natural" voltage but if you have a measurable voltage in your tank, you should probably try and fix it. A ground probe does buy you time to fix a serious stray voltage problem.

The flow of free ions in salt water will register a certain amount of potential. Digital multi-meters will pick this up as a fluctuating reading. My comment was intended to point out that you can have a "measurable voltage" unless you're using an analog needle meter or you have a digital meter that doesn't auto scale, which many (if not most) do.

As far as induced voltage goes, if you ground the water, any magnetic field in proximity to the tank (lights, pumps, etc) will induce a certain amount of voltage to the tank as well. It's nowhere near the level of a broken piece of equipment, but it's still there.

Again, I'll state: I am not arguing against using a grounding probe, so don't lump me in with the guy who argues against.

I am pointing out the facts of an ionic solution, electricity, and a grounding probe that many people may not be aware of since many grounding probes are erroneously marketed as "eliminating stray electrical current" which might lead someone to think that a grounding probe somehow stops current flow and/or voltage in an aquarium.

 

[cameron]

George;36666 wrote: Electrolysis occurs just fine with AC current. The anode and cathode switch at 60Hz, so you get both reactions on both ends of the circuit. Sticking a lamp cord into salt water will demonstrate this. Actual products depend on ions and current.

Sure only most people don't introduce AC current into an aquarium and induction is strictly DC. Not saying it can't happen, but 99% of the time it will likley be DC leaking into your tank.

George;36666 wrote: I never said it created current. I said it created a pathway. You will get ion flow over time from the very small, but present, flow of electrons because saltwater has a higher potential than ground. Unless grounding probes have some special construction, that also means you'll get a slow electrolysis.

Yes and induction can create electrolysis as well, but again not necessarily a bad thing.

George;36666 wrote: I also never said don't use a grounding probe. I said some attention should be paid to placement of the probe.

Where would you put a grounding probe in a modern aquarium that would prevent a problem? In the sump where the heaters sit? In the main tank where most peoples pumps sit? At some point it is likely that fish or other critters are going to possibly come into contact with the leaking which is what I assume you are trying to curb. If you are talking about the electrolysis part, just clean your probe ever so often. In the end what does it matter where you place it so long as it completes the circuit?

George;36666 wrote: The flow of free ions in salt water will register a certain amount of potential. Digital multi-meters will pick this up as a fluctuating reading. My comment was intended to point out that you can have a "measurable voltage" unless you're using an analog needle meter or you have a digital meter that doesn't auto scale, which many (if not most) do.

and that measure is insignificant in most systems. My small voltmeter reads zip in my vat. Turn the pump on and I get a little reading from induction however. Taking a reading before any electrical is near a tank is pretty useless.

George;36666 wrote: I am pointing out the facts of an ionic solution, electricity, and a grounding probe that many people may not be aware of since many grounding probes are erroneously marketed as "eliminating stray electrical current" which might lead someone to think that a grounding probe somehow stops current flow and/or voltage in an aquarium.

Based on that statement, that would be completely false. Ground probes are exactly the opposite. They allow current to flow which is a very good thing when compared to you allowing the current to flow when your hand touches the water or a pH probe doing the same. So in that we most certainly agree.

 

[george]

Cameron;36711 wrote: Sure only most people don't introduce AC current into an aquarium and induction is strictly DC. Not saying it can't happen, but 99% of the time it will likley be DC leaking into your tank.

Cameron, we agree on all of it (though I'd love to show you my bouncing digital voltmeter -- granted it shows very small voltages in the sub-1mV range), but this.

Aren't most of your devices AC? I know the leaks I found once the *painfully* obvious one (a.k.a. Hydor) were all AC: heater (broken seal -- my fault for not checking it regularly -- check these folks!) and a questionable-aged Maxijet 600. The rest of my stuff, Hydor, Sedra, and Mag pumps are all AC.

One thought did occur to me on the use of a grounding probe and a GFCI socket (and both are very good ideas): check your equipment regularly and have a backup power option because it only takes 1/2 a watt or so (~5mA) to trip a GFCI and if a piece of equipment fails or begins leaking while you're away, you may have a disaster on your hands.

Still, better to come home and find your aquarium in distress than have your relatives find you cooked on your aquarium floor.

 

[cameron]

George;36751 wrote: Aren't most of your devices AC? I know the leaks I found once the *painfully* obvious one (a.k.a. Hydor) were all AC: heater (broken seal -- my fault for not checking it regularly -- check these folks!) and a questionable-aged Maxijet 600. The rest of my stuff, Hydor, Sedra, and Mag pumps are all AC.

yes, but most voltage in a tank is DC for a couple reasons. Magnetic induction is DC, electrolysis from "natural" voltage is DC and pretty much everything in the tank converts AC to DC (not sure about heaters). I would guess the only real sources for AC are a chip in the electrical cord which isn't as common as the other sources IMO.

George;36751 wrote: One thought did occur to me on the use of a grounding probe and a GFCI socket (and both are very good ideas): check your equipment regularly and have a backup power option because it only takes 1/2 a watt or so (~5mA) to trip a GFCI and if a piece of equipment fails or begins leaking while you're away, you may have a disaster on your hands.

I sepearate my sump equipment from my display equipment on two GFCIs connected to two seperate breakers. I also added some battery powered pumps in case of a power outage as well that in theory can run for days. A lot has to fail before I have a problem oxygenating the water. Backup heating and cooling are my two main concerns now.

George;36751 wrote: Still, better to come home and find your aquarium in distress than have your relatives find you cooked on your aquarium floor.

I ran across a study that showed nearly all aquarium related deaths were a result from electrocution. Not sure I trust the study, but it seems reasonable. I know I don't play with my hair dryer in the tub. If you watch Mythbusters on the hair dryer episode you know just how easy it is to get smoked by this. They even showed that salt water amplified the effect.

 

[vettesarebest]

This is crazy!!

 

[cameron]

leveldrummer;36824 wrote: what about simple house breakers? doesnt that also act somewhat as a gfci? at least the arc fault type? once you ground, woulndt the amps passing through exceed the breaker and trip?

Two things make house breakers unworkable from a safety standpoint. First, the draw has to exceed 15amps. 1A and as little as 100mA can kill you so you could easily be sitting on 5A in the tank and it not flip the breaker. Second if the circuit isn't complete (say you don't have a ground probe), no current is drawn until that circuit gets completed... or in other words you stick your hand in the tank and complete the circuit. I am not sure how fast a circuit breaker flips off, but I am guessing it is several milliseconds and way too long to be useful. The Mythbusters threw a hair dryer into a bath tub and it didn't flip the circuit breaker which should give you some idea of how dangerous this can be. It is not uncommon for a hair dryer to pull 9A.

I figured broreefr would chime in here as he is an actual electrician. Anyway, don't mess with this stuff is my ultimate suggestion. Get a probe and a GFCI. You can argue till you are blue in the face about possible damage to fish, but ultimately your life could be saved by these items which is worth more than a fishes life.

 

[george]

Cameron;36792 wrote: pretty much everything in the tank converts AC to DC

Are most of the high-end pumps (i.e. Tunze's and their competitors) converting AC to DC? I know Maxijets are AC right down to the motor and I assume Hydors and Mags are since I'd hope they wouldn't design a rectifier into anything I'd actually submerge.

When I took apart a heater once, it looked basically like a toaster stuck in a test tube, so I'm guessing it's AC.

 

[lorenk]

Great, now I'm going to have to turn off everything before I stick my hand in the tank.

 

[wbholwell]

balagan;36972 wrote: Great, now I'm going to have to turn off everything before I stick my hand in the tank.

Nah, just make sure you're </em>not grounded before you stick your hand in- i.e. you're not touching any pipe or plumbing or standing barefoot in a puddle of saltwater.

 

[cameron]

George;36966 wrote: Are most of the high-end pumps (i.e. Tunze's and their competitors) converting AC to DC? I know Maxijets are AC right down to the motor and I assume Hydors and Mags are since I'd hope they wouldn't design a rectifier into anything I'd actually submerge.

When I took apart a heater once, it looked basically like a toaster stuck in a test tube, so I'm guessing it's AC.

I figured (possibly incorrectly) pumps transformed the signal to DC to run the motor as that would create a far more stable signal and simple circuit (and a bit safer in most cases), but then you wouldn't get prop clank if that were the case and most pumps suffer from that problem. I would guess high end Tunze pumps are running DC as that is much easier to control the pump. Controlling an AC motor by varying the power frequency is a serious pain and isn't exactly precise plus WAY more expensive.

Why would you be afraid of a diode or rectifier in something submerged? In something like a DC motor the rectifier would be very small and isn't inherently dangerous. Virtually all electronics run on DC as it greatly simplifies a circuit. I can see not using it in a pump where you have a simple circuit to begin with though.

 

[george]

Cameron;37001 wrote: Why would you be afraid of a diode or rectifier in something submerged? In something like a DC motor the rectifier would be very small and isn't inherently dangerous. Virtually all electronics run on DC as it greatly simplifies a circuit. I can see not using it in a pump where you have a simple circuit to begin with though.

The heat generated by the rectifier circuitry would be a significant added source of heat. It's not dangerous, I would just hope that they'd design it like a laptop brick so that it's outside the tank. I assume Tunze's are outside the tank.

 

[cameron]

Depends on the design and the amount of current needed. A lot of rectifier diodes actaully run very cool. 6w pump would only need about 500mA at 12V which wouldn't generate that much heat in the conversion. By contrast, a laptop needs 100w+ which is a considerable amount more amperage.

 

[wbholwell]

I think it's the transformer that generates most of the heat (necessary to lower the voltage.) But if the motor (or other device) is designed to run on 115 V, then there's no need for one.

 

[ouling]

no, i have my hands.

 

[james s_]

Turn off the breaker? Thats no fun

 

[reefmonster]

OK, Im Lost, Thanks a lot!!!!!!