Ich Identified! Fish Quarantined

[rajfish]

Hey Guys,

Bad News. It is Ich. I looked really carefully at my flame angel, and there they were, the salt sized dots that could only be Ich.

I did this in the following order:

(1) Isolated all my fish to quarantine (I did not freshwater dip in my haste).
(2) Jack up the main tank temperature to 86 degrees.
(3) Left my fish in the main tank. Salinity is the same as the main tank for now. Until I get a refractometer, I dare not try hyposalinity as I only have a swing arm.
(4) Hastily added some alk/pH buffer because I FORGOT to check pH when I created my hospital tank. A stupid move. I hope this does not kill my fish.

Tomorrow:
(1) I am going to Aquabuys to get formalin
(2) Buying a refractometer if they have one.
(3) Commence the formalin dip every other day Brandon told me about.

Guys, those of you who don't quarantine, I am exhibit A for what happens.

rajfish

 

[rajfish]

Also, I am going to wait 12 whole weeks before I put fish back in. Brandon said ich has been found to last as long as 12 weeks. I am doing things right this time. Nov. 24th, fish can return.

 

[atlfishes]

You might try Cupramine, Formalin I hear is pretty rough

 

[rajfish]

I am desperate to save my fish. I found out my flame angel is a Tahitian. He is blood red with almost no yellow, and apparently those are rare.

Seriously, I am almost willing to pay a small fee to have someone else quarantine and care for them for a while. In the meantime, I will begin formalin every other day.

rajfish

 

[xyzpdq0121]

atlfishes;72878 wrote: You might try Cupramine, Formalin I hear is pretty rough

Cupramine an angel, are you serious?!? If there is ONE fish that you would not use Cupramine on, it is an angel!!! Seriously, please know what advice you are giving BEFORE you post.

 

[rajfish]

Hey Brandon,

I just read your article again, and you said 50% water changes are your preferred first course of action. Would you recommend I do those first? That will kill two birds with one stone (1) cycling problems, (2) the angel's potential sensitivity to disease.

However, the problem remains that even if I do the 50% water change, a trophont (tomont?) could still somehow get back into my main tank 12 weeks later since nothing has been used to sterilize the fish.

Suggestions?

 

[suasati]

I will say this one last time, Too many hobbists are being alarmed too soon, unless you encounter a fish that is covered, I mean covered completly with tomites, there is no reason to take drastic measures.
If you see a few dots here and there on the fish, congrats you have just found out you tank has ich, and if you haven't seen one on you fish, well.... you still don't know, most infections happen on the gills, given the fact that is where most water passes through, and will be out of your site for diagnosis.
Raj, The best approach for you would have been to do twice a week water changes, usually in the evening when the tomites burst out. No need for any treatment unless things start to get worst, with good water quality and healthy fish, the problem will be under control. And you will improve the quality of your tank, two birds in one stone, which is not a bad thing......
Formalin will kill every thing, so do not ever use it in main tank unless you are willign to recycle the whole tank..... Good Luck.

 

[xyzpdq0121]

Raj, sorry that our fears were true in this case!

a few more facts for you:

-You are going to have to treat ALL the fish and I would not raise the temp in the main tank while the other fish are in there.

-Raise the temp to 84-84. 86 will not hurt anything but it is a bit out of the safty range. then again you do not have corals or anything but you do have other inverts that might be affected by +86 degrees.

-DO NOT try a FW dip without a way to check the PH. The only real threat to a fish in a FW dip is from PH shock and your "normal" tests are just not able to let you know if your PH is matched up enough ("Is that light blue, or lighter blue, or maybe this blue?!?")

-Remember, for a formalin dip, add 1 tsp of "Formalin 3" per gallon of water and hold the fish in there for 30-50 min. You are going to want to get an air stone in that water too... I would do the dip every 3 days to be safe, the angel might need the other day to rest, he is going to be your hardest to treat so go off of his cues to you.

-ABOVE ALL, Ich is bad but it is not a killer... Do not rush into treatment like he has ebola or anything. Make sure you have everything set up and ready to go before you start flipping out. A fish can "live" with Ich for a while, unless it gets in the gills!

If you need any supplies like a PH pen for a FW dip, Meth Blue for a FW dip, or a refractometer just lest me know. You are more then welcome to borrow anything you need.

 

[xyzpdq0121]

rajfish;72885 wrote: Hey Brandon,

I just read your article again, and you said 50% water changes are your preferred first course of action. Would you recommend I do those first? That will kill two birds with one stone (1) cycling problems, (2) the angel's potential sensitivity to disease.

However, the problem remains that even if I do the 50% water change, a trophont (tomont?) could still somehow get back into my main tank 12 weeks later since nothing has been used to sterilize the fish.

Suggestions?

The 50% water change method works but it is most effective in the evening shortly after "lights out", IMHO you can combine this with any other treatment (Hypo, Formalin, copper [not for you since you have an angel], etc) if you would like. My first course of action would be to combine it with hypo and skip the formalin untill you see if the hypo is going to work. You have 12 weeks to play with here so, you have time to try different methods of curing the fish before you step up to medications. Like I told you today, I only support medications when nothing else is working but sometimes it is the only way.

When I am done QTing some fish, you can borrow my 20 gal QT to move the fish up so they have more room for three months.


BTW: I kind of agree with Suasati up there except for one major problem I have. Natural Fish Developed Immunity is still not testable and an emerging theory. I have tried to test it but to no avail. I do not believe a fish can "learn to live with it" nor do I believe that a fish can rid itself of an infection. Once it is there it needs to be wiped out or else it will re establish itself sooner or later.

 

[rajfish]

Hey Brandon,

I have already moved all of my fish to the quarantine tank. The main tank is now at 85-86. I have inverts, but they will be ok at 85-86 (as long as we don't go too high).

Also, should I do the formalin, or start with water changes in the QT instead?

 

[xyzpdq0121]

rajfish;72890 wrote:
Also, should I do the formalin, or start with water changes in the QT instead?

Since you are waiting 12 weeks to put the fish back in the main tank. I would start with hypo and water changes and try that for about 2-3 weeks and see where it gets ya. If that does not work for this "light" of an infection, we will come up with a second method for you.

That is what I would do.

 

[rajfish]

You answered my question right as I posted. My BIGGEST fear right now is that I may have dead fish in the morning because I forgot to adjust my pH to 8.4. As a last ditch measure, I added Buff and Alkalinity stuff to my QT with the fish in it.

 

[xyzpdq0121]

Ya that was a no-no... but there is not much you can do about it now.

Rule of thumb, Never Panic! if it give you piece of mind, I doubt your main tank was up the 8.4. With what you had into it, I would say more like 8.2-8.3 unless you were doing some heavy buffering. Even then, newly mixed saltwater would have been 8.1-8.2 which is not THAT big of jump for a fish, mainly if it is in the down direction. anything about 0.1 PH swing should be able to be handled by a fish. I would not make a habit of it but I would think your chances of being ok are beter then 50/50!

 

[rajfish]

Whew! I thought freshly mixed saltwater was 7.0. I forgot you don't have to add anything to it to get it to 8.0. I actually acclimated the fish in a bucket with partial QT water and tank water. So, they should be fine.

 

[xyzpdq0121]

Ya you are fine... Take a deep breath and get a good night sleep... Do not worry, let see how they are in the morning, Doctor's orders!

 

[suasati]

Xyzpdq0121;72889 wrote:
BTW: I kind of agree with Suasati up there except for one major problem I have. Natural Fish Developed Immunity is still not testable and an emerging theory. I have tried to test it but to no avail. I do not believe a fish can "learn to live with it" nor do I believe that a fish can rid itself of an infection. Once it is there it needs to be wiped out or else it will re establish itself sooner or later.

I didn't mention anything about immunity, but I do tend to believe, fish attain short-term resistance, otherwise you can explain why in the same tank some fish are affected more than others....
Only sure method of erradicating, is to not have any fish for an extended period of time, not in the main tank, not in QT and not in anywhere in your house.
Just because you don't see any exterior signs doesn't mean they do not have mild infection, in their gills, yes, gills are where they first infect, why? more water flow, high contact and above all softer tissue.
And even if you do, it doesn't mean the new fish you bring in isn't carrying the parasite. They can go without any visible signs in QT for a long time.

Golden rule on tackling parasites is not erradication but controlling them with proper husbandary, it goes a long way. Only use meds when fish shows excessive infection. Because 9 out of 10 times, all the meds and treatment makes the fish to stop eating and you have more issues in your hand than you started with.

 

[xyzpdq0121]

Ok there is little science to back up your claims. You have taken bits and pieces of truth and twisted it.

otherwise you can explain why in the same tank some fish are affected more than others

Ummm because some fish are affected more then others. Different fish have different make up. For an extream example, take a sunfish (Mola Mola) for example. It is one of the worst carrier of parasites due to its soft body tissue that makes it easier for parasites to grab hold. A shark on the other hand, does not have to worry about parasites!

Only sure method of erradicating, is to not have any fish for an extended period of time, not in the main tank, not in QT and not in anywhere in your house.

Huh?!? I file this comment in the catigory of a comment like, "All fish tanks have Ich, it hitch hikes on live rock or from another source and there is no way to get rid of it! Neither of the two make sense to me!

Just because you don't see any exterior signs doesn't mean they do not have mild infection, in their gills.....

it doesn't mean the new fish you bring in isn't carrying the parasite. They can go without any visible signs in QT for a long time....

Agreed... Gill infestions are common.. There are signs to tell of gill infections but it is hard. But this is why I recommend that a person run a QT at Hypo and give the fish a FW dip upon arriving to the QT tank. These two practices are safe for the fish but will remove most if not all external parasites before the fish get into QT. Furthermore, the parasite will hitch hike in the gills but with propert QT and observation, the parasite will not remain there and you will see exterior body signs within a months period of time.

Golden rule on tackling parasites is not erradication but controlling them with proper husbandary, it goes a long way

Again, HUH?!? Whoes golden rule is that?!? I surveyed 100 PETA members and 99% of them agreed, parasites have to go, kill them all! (We killed the other guy for being stupid, FYI!) So if they did not make this "golden rule" then who did?!? I will agree, husbandry does go a long way but will mnot "control" parasites. Again that is you saying that if you keep the fish healthy, you are making it immune from attack or atleast able to fight it off itself. It wont happen, it is not an immune system thing. I will take the modle of health, you know the person that eats wheatgrass becasue it is a cure all for everything. Sure I will agree that there might be something to the claim that they get sick less then a normal person. They might be able to fight off the flu more then a normal person. Now let me take them to South America and get them to drink the water and eat a few tape worms. You want to talk about on sick hippy! The parasite has NOTHING to do with immune system!

Only use meds when fish shows excessive infection.

Define "excessive"... I will agree, and have said many times, that meds are a last resort when other treatment options have failed. If you have cancer, your doctor might allow you to try all the healing crystals and herbal teas you want, but if they do not work, surgery and radiation are in your near future. It is alright to try other methods but until proven, be prepared to step in with things that have been PROVEN to work.

Because 9 out of 10 times, all the meds and treatment makes the fish to stop eating and you have more issues in your hand than you started with.

Ok this is my THIRD "Huh" of this reply, I think this is a new record!! First of all, where do you get 9 out of 10?!? I have treated over a hundred fish now (thanks to the members on this site) and I have loss about 14%, mostly due to a weak fish in the first place that might not have survived before hand so i can not chalk that up to the treatment. Second, the most I have seen a fish go without eating after treatment is about a day and you should not be trying to feed them for that day anyways. I just dipped 6 fish suffering from Brook and Ich (both), the Tomato clown was not eating for a few days prior... I used a double dose of Formalin for a 50 min dip in SW. EVERYONE survived (from the large tomato clown to the small clown goby) and within the next 24 hours the Tomato was eating like a pig again.

You come up with hard science or some fact to your statements and I will stand behind them and test them. But your last two posts were based off of hearsay and twisted science, pulling excerpts from larger studies to suit your own needs. Not only is that dangerious advice to give another hobbiest, but also dangerous to the fish being treated. If I can offer some reading on the subject it would be Ed Noga's book: Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment. It is about the best reference on fish disease and pathology out there. A bit of a hard read but well worth it.

 

[suasati]

If you want to debate you need to meet me in person. Bring a hamburger and leave the PETA members where they belong.
I hate going back and forth on the internet, it is retarded.

But I will say one thing though, do not try to belittle people without knowing their background, I have sent out way too many fish for necropsy to even keep count, and looked up noga so many times, the index is probably etched in the back on my eyes.
And if you want to see ich survivors, who got no treatment, that don't get anymore ich even though I know it is probably still in my tank, I will behappy to show you.

 

[jefft]

Ding, Ding, Ding!!!!!

 

[xyzpdq0121]

Agreed... lets meet and debate over a hamburger some time.

I know you know Noga, we have had the discussion before, we have been on this merry-go-round a time or two. I was not trying to belittle you in any way but we have gone into your background before.

I just have a hard time wrapping my mind around Ich survivors that do not get it any more but the Ich is still present in the tank. Ask the GAI how that approach is working out for them, oh wait, sorry that could be a sore subject. By your own admission, Ich can live in the gills, undetected for a long period of time. So, if you are correct, then the fish that are survivors might still be plagued by it but not show outward signs. Kind of like being in remission for cancer but not testing or treating because you show no outward signs in the location that it was in.

The problem I had with your prior posts is, for someone with a knowledge and Noga etched on the brain, your post was back up will little to none of those facts that you know. OMG, I am turning in to Panda!!!!!