Ich Wiped My Entire Tank

Crewdawg1981;631599 wrote: Well.... I didnt think I had it either.

I've never had any fish get it until three weeks ago. Tang got it without any new additions to the tank.
Any new corals rock or sand? The ich can be transported to the tank on any of those, it does not have to come in on a fish.
 
Well... I have since then, but not at the time.

When he got it, everything in the tank had been transferred from my 90 and running for a while. The rock and corals had been with me for years. The last addition I got was back in September I think (coral) from Snowman.

I'm 100% its from being stuffed into a fuge that is 24x24x12. He is only 3-4 inches, and this is only temporary until I get the other tangs, but its nowhere near enough room for him. Lots of nori and food soaked in selcon and he's all better, fat, and lookin good. Prolly still not happy though.
 
True 'dat. Anything wet is a vector.

grouper therapy;631627 wrote: Any new corals rock or sand? The ich can be transported to the tank on any of those, it does not have to come in on a fish.
 
Aston Martin;631553 wrote: I overheard a conversation at a LFS last weekend where one person mentioned a new or mutated strain of ich that was proving to be really nasty. No details beyond that....

Ha, I was the other guy standing there listening to him say that......older, really nice african american gentlemen? I didnt catch his screenname but he said he has been lurking here..
 
This strain has been around for a while but is now showing up even more often in the home aquarium.

<ul>
<li>Resistant Cryptocarayon Shows Up In 06' - This strain of marine Ich is resistant to traditional treatments with Formaldehyde, Malachite Green, Copper & All the dyes.</li>
</ul>
Greatly peaking my interest, I investigated further, and upon reading this next statement, my interest became concern.

<ul>
<li>"Here's a picture of a Lionfish (Pterois Volitans</em>), that has the new strain of Cryptocaryon that is going around. This strain of marine Ich is not sensitive to treatments with Copper or Formaldehyde. This strain of Ich is responsible for severe mortalities in the industry right now. It shows up a bit larger than usual, followed with a slime that covers the fish and starves it for oxygen. The fish will die with it's mouth open (anoxia)</em>."</li>
</ul>
Wow. That's really scary! As most saltwater aquarium keepers know, Cryptocarayon is the form of ich commonly known as http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/ichparasiticdiseases/a/aa_cryptocaryon.htm">White Spot Disease or Marine Ich</a>. It is a force of nature that undoubtedly every aquarist dreads, but with proper treatment can successfully be eradicated. Apparently not with this new kind of ich. At this point I again called Dr. Brian to learn more about this alarming malady, and this is what I found out.
In the fall of 2006 a customer came to him asking for help with an extreme, to say the least, case of ich. Just trying to get some of the fish to his lab alive was difficult, but success came when they finally transported the sick fish in formalin and malachite green solution treated water. Placing them in a treatment tank, the medication appeared to be helping, but by the next morning the fish were a least five times worse, completely covered with ich and coated with thick slime. Inspected the menacing organisms under a microscope, Dr. Brian said he was amazed at what he saw. A new strain of ich he'd never seen before, and one of the most viral and rapid developing he said he has encountered thus far in his career. And yes, it can and does wipe fish out in as little as 24 - 48 hours.
Much like bacteria in the news these days that have mutated and formed new strains that are resistant to antibiotics traditionally used to kill them, this new ich parasite is also a mutation of nature, which in a similar way has developed an immunity to the medications traditionally used against it. The good news is that after much experimentation with searching for a cure using all the traditional treatments, Dr. Brian told me he thought back through his years of education and experience of treating fish diseases, and decided to try one of the first successfully used medications against ich, quinine sulfate. It worked, and [IMG]http://nationalfishpharm.com/">National Fish Pharmaceuticals</a> developed [I][IMG]http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/products.html#C">Crypto-Pro™</a></em>, their answer for the fight against new stubborn strains of Ich and Cryptocarayon being seen lately, and a product that is effective against stubborn strains of Hexamita (Hole in the Head Disease) and Chilodonella (body slime), and Heteropolaria (Epistylis) in Koi ponds.
The intent of this article is to bring this new deadly form of ich to the attention of those in the marine aquarium fish hobby and industry. This is something I feel everyone should be aware of, and would be wise to be prepared to treat at any time in case it pops up. A medication containing quinine sulfate appears to be the answer to this problem, but this treatment can be difficult to find. At N.F.P., which has been providing bulk pharmaceuticals and chemicals to pet shops, importers, breeders, zoos, hobbyists and other freshwater and marine tropical fish and Koi wholesalers since 1971, pure, top-grade quality fish meds are their business. They not only have this hard to find remedy, but a wide range of [IMG]http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/products.html">fresh and saltwater fish medications</a> available for sale you may be looking for.
I want to thank Dr. Brian Aukes for taking the time to professionally discuss this treatment resistant strain of ich with me, and am greatly appreciative for the insight he has given me, because I can better educate others about it. Whenever I hear or read about occurrences such as this, I think of the movie "Jurassic Park". Things in nature will always find a way to survive and live on. I will be ready if this ich comes my way. Will you?
[I]~ Debbie Hauter</em>
 
Chris, where is that quote from?

Edit: Additional note to this- Chris is suggesting a strain of treatment resistant ick. Not a strain of "ultra deadly" ick. They are two entirely different concepts.
 
a>
 
Fish Scales2;631663 wrote: This strain has been around for a while but is now showing up even more often in the home aquarium.

<ul>
<li>Resistant Cryptocarayon Shows Up In 06' - This strain of marine Ich is resistant to traditional treatments with Formaldehyde, Malachite Green, Copper & All the dyes.</li>
</ul>Greatly peaking my interest, I investigated further, and upon reading this next statement, my interest became concern.

<ul>
<li>"Here's a picture of a Lionfish (Pterois Volitans</em>), that has the new strain of Cryptocaryon that is going around. This strain of marine Ich is not sensitive to treatments with Copper or Formaldehyde. This strain of Ich is responsible for severe mortalities in the industry right now. It shows up a bit larger than usual, followed with a slime that covers the fish and starves it for oxygen. The fish will die with it's mouth open (anoxia)</em>."</li>
</ul>Wow. That's really scary! As most saltwater aquarium keepers know, Cryptocarayon is the form of ich commonly known as http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/ichparasiticdiseases/a/aa_cryptocaryon.htm">White Spot Disease or Marine Ich</a>. It is a force of nature that undoubtedly every aquarist dreads, but with proper treatment can successfully be eradicated. Apparently not with this new kind of ich. At this point I again called Dr. Brian to learn more about this alarming malady, and this is what I found out.
In the fall of 2006 a customer came to him asking for help with an extreme, to say the least, case of ich. Just trying to get some of the fish to his lab alive was difficult, but success came when they finally transported the sick fish in formalin and malachite green solution treated water. Placing them in a treatment tank, the medication appeared to be helping, but by the next morning the fish were a least five times worse, completely covered with ich and coated with thick slime. Inspected the menacing organisms under a microscope, Dr. Brian said he was amazed at what he saw. A new strain of ich he'd never seen before, and one of the most viral and rapid developing he said he has encountered thus far in his career. <span style="color: darkorange"><u>[I][B]And yes, it can and does wipe fish out in as little as 24 - 48 hours[/B]</em></u></span>.
Much like bacteria in the news these days that have mutated and formed new strains that are resistant to antibiotics traditionally used to kill them, this new ich parasite is also a mutation of nature, which in a similar way has developed an immunity to the medications traditionally used against it. The good news is that after much experimentation with searching for a cure using all the traditional treatments, Dr. Brian told me he thought back through his years of education and experience of treating fish diseases, and decided to try one of the first successfully used medications against ich, quinine sulfate. It worked, and [IMG]http://nationalfishpharm.com/">National Fish Pharmaceuticals</a> developed [I][IMG]http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/products.html#C">Crypto-Pro™</a></em>, their answer for the fight against new stubborn strains of Ich and Cryptocarayon being seen lately, and a product that is effective against stubborn strains of Hexamita (Hole in the Head Disease) and Chilodonella (body slime), and Heteropolaria (Epistylis) in Koi ponds.
The intent of this article is to bring this new deadly form of ich to the attention of those in the marine aquarium fish hobby and industry. This is something I feel everyone should be aware of, and would be wise to be prepared to treat at any time in case it pops up. A medication containing quinine sulfate appears to be the answer to this problem, but this treatment can be difficult to find. At N.F.P., which has been providing bulk pharmaceuticals and chemicals to pet shops, importers, breeders, zoos, hobbyists and other freshwater and marine tropical fish and Koi wholesalers since 1971, pure, top-grade quality fish meds are their business. They not only have this hard to find remedy, but a wide range of [IMG]http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/products.html">fresh and saltwater fish medications</a> available for sale you may be looking for.
I want to thank Dr. Brian Aukes for taking the time to professionally discuss this treatment resistant strain of ich with me, and am greatly appreciative for the insight he has given me, because I can better educate others about it. Whenever I hear or read about occurrences such as this, I think of the movie "Jurassic Park". Things in nature will always find a way to survive and live on. I will be ready if this ich comes my way. Will you?
[I]~ Debbie Hauter</em>[/QUOTE]

From what I understand this strain of ich is stronger and more aggressive.
For what it is worth I found this very interesting "IMMUNIZATION AGAINST ICH" How sweet would that be.

[IMG]http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=338&articleid=20100829_13_A22_LOSANG968378&rss_lnk=1">http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=338&articleid=20100829_13_A22_LOSANG968378&rss_lnk=1</a>
 
i thought the theory was that ich was present on the FISH. not in the water. that if the fish became stressed or ill, then the ich could get a foothold..
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=16+2160&aid=2421">http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=16+2160&aid=2421</a>

just what i heard, but i am not usually a fountain of information :)
 
sarahh;631704 wrote: i thought the theory was that ich was present on the FISH. not in the water. that if the fish became stressed or ill, then the ich could get a foothold..
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=16+2160&aid=2421">http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=16+2160&aid=2421</a>

just what i heard, but i am not usually a fountain of information :)[/QUOTE]

During the parasitic phase of the ich life cycle, yes. But once they have gotten the nutrition they need from the fish, they drop off. There is a "free swimming" phase, and I [I]THINK</em> a phase where it will be on hard surfaces like rock etc.
 
I must have already seen this strain of ich. Every time I've ever seen the dreaded white spots, my fish was gone in 48 hours or less. Thankfully, I haven't seen it in almost a year.
 
Wait wait wait everyone. Before we start getting ahead of ourselves, let's discuss what were talking about and see some referencing.
How does a "strain" of ick kill faster? By what biological method? Mutation for resistance to preventative medication is very common in biology, but I'm not understanding how a protozoan can mutate to be more deadly. How?

The thing with ick is, it depresses weak fish to be susceptible to other pathogens too. But it is a parasite. Just as fleas are to dogs. I don't understand how fleas can become a super strain that is more deadly. They may allow a disease or cause other issue that exasperated the problem, but their biology (for which they evolved hundreds of millions of years to become) is the same.

For those who have suffered losses to the "super ick", how was it diagnosed and evaluated? Just sight of "spots"? Could other diseases, factors, etc been involved?
 
mysterybox;631574 wrote: Ich isn't always there. Myth.

Ich wipes out many fish and many tanks

Most healthy fish with proper nutrition & husbandry can fight it off.


+1 to this and everything Mystery Box has said. Ich is a parasite that can be prevented with proper QT procedures of anything wet you put in your tank.

Yes, a healthy fish can fight off ich, but I will always reccomend treating ich outbreaks with hyposalinity of fish in a hospital tank and leaving your DT fallow for a period of at least 6 weeks.

IMO, this actually kills the ich as apposed to keeping it "under control" with garlic and vitamins.

If you follow the "under control" procedure, your fish do get ich once a month, just not in numbers that you may notice. And any stress factor or illness will leave your fish and tank susceptible to a large outbreak.
 
jmaneyapanda;631849 wrote: Wait wait wait everyone. Before we start getting ahead of ourselves, let's discuss what were talking about and see some referencing.
How does a "strain" of ick kill faster? By what biological method? Mutation for resistance to preventative medication is very common in biology, but I'm not understanding how a protozoan can mutate to be more deadly. How?

The thing with ick is, it depresses weak fish to be susceptible to other pathogens too. But it is a parasite. Just as fleas are to dogs. I don't understand how fleas can become a super strain that is more deadly. They may allow a disease or cause other issue that exasperated the problem, but their biology (for which they evolved hundreds of millions of years to become) is the same.

For those who have suffered losses to the "super ick", how was it diagnosed and evaluated? Just sight of "spots"? Could other diseases, factors, etc been involved?


:thumbs:
To reiterate:
if, if, if there is a "super ick", as stated, then the only difference would be that it is more resistent to a "cure"...

Marine Ick isn't easy in the first place easy to cure.


The life cycle of C. irritans</em>



The life cycle stages of C. irritans</em>


C. irritans</em> has a four stage life cycle, as shown in Figure 1. The parasitic stage (trophonts) is the one that results in the appearance of white spots all over the fish. The trophonts burrow under the skin where they feed on body fluids and tissue debris. When the trophonts first infect the fish they are small but grow as they feed and so the white spots are initially small but get larger as they mature. Once mature, they drop off the fish and sink/swim down to the substrate where they encyst and begin to reproduce. In this stage they are called tomonts. After a number of days in which the tomonts divide, the cyst ruptures, releasing the tomites. Tomites may differentiate into theronts, the infective stage, which actively seek a host to reinfect.
>
 
I have had ich wipe-out 2/3rds of my fish population in an underpopulated 55 gallon with excellent parameters and stability about a 15 months ago.. I can never get the fish to eat readily or at all once they were infected with ich. - so hats off to those who can. I used the metro and focus mixed into the food and that still didn't help. Maybe I should have tried a side of calamari. Bought the cleaner shrimp and cleaner wrasse and no dice. In fact the warsse got ich. My ich was apparently introduced by the purchase of a regal rank very a very reputable sponsor LFS that keeps copper in his tank. The fish was there for weeks and eating voraciously in the LFS and once I bought it home. It ate with gusto for the 4 days that I owned it. I also did not observe any forms of harrasment (maybe so name calling -LOL). The regal was think biggest (about 2 inches) of the 3 other fish that were in the tank and the other fish were the peace-loving, conscientious objector types. So after 32 years playing around with this stuff, I still have no idea how to control it. And yes, I did monitor Am amd Na levels immedately after adding the new fish to see if the addition put pressure on my biological filtartion.

I do now own a beautiul 14 gallon, fully equipped Oceanic nano tank to serve as my quarantine. Needles to say, it has never seen any water (and I just bought a yellow tank yesterday!. I am a slow learner..but at least I bought the QT (they are like gym memberships). As an animal lover, I should be more responible to my other fish (still only 3 others), I shoudld be QTing. But Ii do know hobbyist that QT and have UVs that still get ich -well their fish get ich:-). In 1984, I bought and built my first reef tank from George Schmidt (the self-proclaimed father of reef tanks). He may have been more of a marekting guy than his preceeding and succeeding experts (Martin Moe, Albert Theil, Dr. Tunze, Julian Spring, Rick Burlseon and a few other German and other guys from the Netherland whose books I own but can't remember their names :-))..... But the original reef tank concept was supposed to be from free from the contraction of all diseases and no water changes needed -in factwater changes were discouraged ( I shoudl have saved the original FAMA article) - and cured baldness!. It was also only to have 1 small, non aggressive fish per 25 gallons - a goby, blenny, hawkfish etc. and then tons of live rock and your inverts. While all of these advances and chemical additives that have been developed do help us increase our bio load and enjoy for all intensity and purposes a slice of the reef in our homes, we may have veered too far from the original desig. having said all this, there are much greater and expriences minds than mine that are in ARC..so what the heck do I know. I have also seen some hobbyist tanks where I actually think their inhabitants will fare better in their tanks than in nature.
Sorry for yoiur loss, but you are in good company and not alone. I didn't add fish back for 4 months per the advice from one of our sponsor. I have been ich-free for almost a year, but then again, I hav not turned my lights on since adding the yellow tang. Oh yeah, I also don't spend any more than 40 bucks on anyone fish. That's the CPA in me (<u>C</u>heapest <u>P</u>erson <u>A</u>live). :-). Well, I hope you enjoyed this slighly humorous, but true account of my ich experiences. I did find it hard to lauh, when I was going through it (and I am sure that I will again - Death, taxes and ich).
 
It is amazing to me that some still think that a parasite can lay dormant more than the scientifically documented period of time and suddenly magically appear. It simply doesn't happen. It was reintroduced on something that was placed there by someone unless there is an airborne version.
If there were absolutely positively no additions of any type to a system and the fish suddenly have Ich then the fish had it before and it was not seen.
 
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