Ick HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

paul&farah

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Bought a Brown Tang (yellow Rimmed) yesterday. We put him in the tank last night and now he has ICK!! We have no QT or Treatment tank. My husband is on his way to good old Walmart to get necessary supplies. Any suggestions?? I don't really know what to do. Freshwater dip, copper, Hypo salinty etc???
 
dawgdude;235361 wrote: Dont do ANYTHING except feed him and make sure he eats. No copper, no hypo or anything like that because it wont kill ich and will only stress the fish. Soak the food in Garlic guard from Seachem and Seachem Metronitizone if you can get it at your local fish store. Feed lots of nori (available at any grocery store in the sushi section) and buy PE Mysis if you can or a variety of frozen foods. If he stays plump and healthy then he can defintly ride out the ich. What are you system params, what size tank and how long has it been up.
+1

except about the metronidzol..if you use it you want to use it in conjuntion with focus so it bonds to the food and not free floating in the water

Metro. is an Anorobic(sp) bacteria antibiotic...can reek some real havok with coral and all that good bacteria
 
I hate to admit it but I do not know the params. It is an upgrade, we up graded a 55 that was up for 2 years to this 100 in July. We have never had any problems with it. We are in need of new wands for our reef keeper 2, that is why I don't know the numbers.
 
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.php">http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.php</a>


[IMG]http://atj.net.au/marineaquaria/marineich.html">http://atj.net.au/marineaquaria/marineich.html</a>


The following post is by Kelly Jedlicky, "The World Renown" expert on fish disease.

Too often than not, a fish, invert, live rock, etc is not quarantined properly and is added directly to the display tank - introducing all kinds of opportunistic pathogens.
Certain fish are definitely more susceptible to marine ich (crytocaryon irritans) such as the tangs and puffers[IMG]http://www.marinedepot.com/FORUMS/Skins/Classic/Images/EmotIcons/Angry.gif" alt="" />
A common thread you will hear, "my fish was doing fine for a couple of weeks & all of a sudden white spots appeared". The spots can often appear after there has been a change in the tank (a stressor) such as sudden water parameter changes (change in pH, alkalinity, ammonia, ORP, temperature), new tank mate added, mating/courting, aggressive substrate vacuuming or tank redecoration. Chronic stress (stress that goes on for a prolonged period of time - days - wweeks - months but doesn't acutely cause behavioral changes in the fish). Examples of this would be chronic suboptimal water quality (chronic low oxygen levels, ORP or pH), inappropriate or tainted/spoiled food, unwitnessed aggressive tendencies or inappropriate tank mates. These chronic conditions put strain on the fish's immune system where once it was able to fight off the pathogen/parasite, now becomes infected.
In order to understand the parasite, one must understand the life cycle of the parasite. When one sees the actual white spots, that is the adult often referred to as trophonts. These will mature and encapsulate themselves and fall off of the fish to the floor/substrate. The encapsulated cysts are now called tomonts. Tomonts will divide/multiply into small ciliated (hairlike) organisms. They are now called tomites. Tomites swarm the tank looking for new hosts (fish). This parasite bores into the mucosa of the skin, fins, and gills and then continues its life as a trophont.....and the circle of life continues. This process takes several days so often hobbyists will see spots "come and go". The ich is not gone but merely entering a new cycle and multiplying.
[B]Symptoms[/B] besides the white spots include:
1. scratching and eradic/frantic swimming(fish trying to rid itself of the boring pest).
2. increased or heavy breathing, with the fish tending to stay at the water surace, close to water return pipes/powerheads or in airstone bubbles (parasite in gills affecting respirations).
3. increased mucous production (slime).
4. eye cloudiness (especially with puffers).
When left untreated, this parasite infestation can lead to other secondary opportunistic infections - bacterial infections like fin rot, red patches, ulcerations.
The display tank is infected with the parasite. If the fish has a strong immune system, the fish has a chance (I am not a betting person so don't ask me to place odds or chances) of overcoming the infestation. With that being said, the constant presence of the parasite and reinfection until (if ever) the fish develops an immunity/resistance can cause chronic stress and the fish can become victim to something else (bacterial, fungal or worm infestation.) Adding new fish at this point, even if they have now been properly quarantined , to this system is risky. They too will be exposed and they will surely become infested.
[B]To rid the tank of the parasite[/B]:
I would recommend removing ALL of the fish and place in a separate bare bottom quarantine tank. By removing the fish, the parasite does not have a host to complete its life cycle. The tank will have to remain fallow (fishless) for a minimum of 4 weeks, I prefer 8 weeks. Another option would be to treat the main tank with copper. I do not recommend this especially if this is a reef, one with liverock or substrate. Copper will KILL inverts, corals and the micro fauna on the live rock. Substrate will leach/absorb the copper and the therapeutic treatment levels needed to cure/rid the parasite will not be achieved. There are many advertised/marketed "reef safe" ich cures - I don't recommend them. If you visist enough sites, talk to enough hobbyists, you will find those that highly recommend these products and then others that have had miserable or disastrous results....this is true about every aspect of life and science. I do not gamble when it comes to the life of an animal, fish or human.
[B]What to do for the fish:[/B]
All the fish need to be treated in a separate quarantine/hospital tank.
*Hyposalinity (S.G. 1.009 - measured with a refractometer at least daily) for a minimum of 4 weeks. The parasite can not live in hyposalinity.
* The tank needs to be bare bottom (no substrate) with hiding spots for the fish. Hiding spots should be things that can be sterilized after each use - pvc pipe/couplings or those plastic caves/decorations used in freshwater tanks.
* There should be some source of biological filtration. I prefer air driven sponge filters that can be cycled or maintained in your display system's sump or a sponge or bioballs in a HOB (hang on the back filter). Both of these can be quickly removed from the display system and added to the QT.
* Additional aeration (air stone or power head pointed from the bottom of the tank to surface) will also be needed as these fish are stressed and this causes an increase demand for oxygen.
*Another option is to treat with copper in the quarantine/hospital tank. Copper has been proven as an affective treatment. Copper too is an irritant and fish breeders have found it to affect fertility. Copper kills inverts, algaes, corals. Some fish (scale-less fish, elasmobranchs) are very sensitive to copper and do not do well. If you use copper, in addition to the other water parameters, you must monitor the copper levels daily to prevent toxicity as well as subtherapeutic levels (low) as both extremes will affect the outcome/cure.
Whether you choose hyposalinity or copper treatment, you must monitor the water parameters in the tank at least daily as pH, ammonia and nitrite levels can change rapidly. This causes additional stress which can affect the success of cure. Frequent water changes and the addition of buffer to maintain pH are required.
Improving the fish's immune system will also help. You can do this by the addition of beta glucan, vitamins and garlic to the fish's diet daily while in treatment.
Watch closely for secondary infections as mentioned above. Antibiotics may need to be added. I would not recommend treating with antibiotics prophylactically or "just in case" as this can add stress or lead to a drug resistant pathogens.
Don't like these proven methods of cure- The only other option is to break down the tank & start over.
 
ares;235475 wrote: marine fish will respond well to copper AFAIK. but wont help you if you dont have a QT tank, as its game over if you put it in you display. more to the point, 10g tanks are cheap, but good luck catching him at this point anyway.

I have ick, and though Im trying Ive pretty much resigned myself to the fact that all the fish will likely die.

out of curiosity, how does focus work with metri? I have both, I have been just pouring the metri into the tank, and mixing focus with the food...

I feed frozen food. so I put a tiny bit of water in with it, till it melts, now that I have a pulpy mixture, how would I use focus to bond the metri to the food? or do I have to use pellets or flakes? or what?
Metro. will kill anerobic bacterica....(which is bad) if you mix it with focus it is supposed to make it bond to the food so that way its not free floating in the water..
if the fish will still eat just over feed them and they can fight it off....dont give up
 
why would you feed antibiotics when ich is a parasite? Is that a "just in case" the fish catches a secondary infection? By the way, copper & hypo have been PROVEN to work 100% if done as directed. However, I realize that this is not always possible, so rolling the dice with riding it out might be a choice that some have to make. In addition to what everyone has said, I would recommend a food that your fish will definilty eat (if ALL else fails!), and that would be brine shrimp or spiriulla brine ONLY if you soak with Selcon &/or Beta Glucan, as brine shrimp isn't nutritious enough by itself. This would be to just get a fish to ear that hasn't eaten in days.
 
dawgdude;235494 wrote: Ralph.......this is one of the most absurd posts I have seen you make in a while. Show me a scientific study where hypo worked 100% of the time because at the previous store I worked at we had a 100w UV and hypo in the system and guess what......WE STILL HAD ICH!

Also, might want to research something before you attack it (not that this is anything new for you) because metronidazole is not an antibiotic but a medication used to control and treat infections of an organism with an anaerobic bacteria or protozoa. Grow up Ralph.


Making personal attacks is not really appropriate. But I guess if you think u know more then Kelly who is known throughout the world for Fish disease, so be it.
 
I was talking about focus. Not metro. I still don't know why u would attack me because we disagree slightly on a treatment of disease. I also states that in some cases, riding it out might be the only option, and then I added to your idea that try this food a vitamins as a last ditch effort. I am very confused by all of this. I have no knowlegde of metro, nor do I need to. And if I was wrong about focus being an antibiotic, so???
 
I'm a big fan of a beefed up UV on the system to combat ich. Don't bother with the small wattage units as they seem to be ineffective.
 
Just as an addition to what Jin said, dont expect UV to be 100% effective either, at least not on all animals. He has had great luck with it, but I have had a 57W UV on my ~160 gal system for many months, and my achilles still has very minor ich. Luckily heat eats well and is very healthy, so it hasnt been a problem for the ~8 months I've had him.

I think many people much more educated than myself would lean towards a proper quarantine of ALL the fish as the best treatment, if feasible. After that proper nutrition along with decent preventative equipment such as UV and ozone might be in order.

edit: that is an AQUA UV with a new lamp, and approx 2 gpm flow, maybe slightly less, if any one wants to make a suggestion on a more effective gph...
 
Although, I would not recommend this approach, 3 years ago when I my fish had ich, I used a combination of the methods above in my display (not recommended) because I couldn't catch the fish, I didn't have a quar tank, blah, blah, blah.

1. UV
2. Selcon soaked foods
3. Ruby Reefs "Kick Ich" (which is most likely similar to metro, but not sure)

I did two 6 week treaments, and I havnt had ich since. All fish are still alive.
 
That is probably the first "positive" thing I have heard about Ruby's with the exception of store clerk testomonials. Haha. But glad to hear that someone had success, even though I would lean towards the enrchment of the food and the increased health of the fish as the true cure. But maybe not.
 
I know it's some kind of protozoan killer. Yeah, I've heard good things & bad things which is why I wouldn't recommend it. I know it worked for me, and it didn't kill my softies that I had at the time. Most treatments you will find have a lot of positive comments & a lot a negative. Not much in the middle. UV will only kill things that go through re water column, so anything that clings to sand, live rock, etc, will not be affected.
 
The nem might have let some toxins into the water causing stress for the fish. Done any WC's?
 
to set this straight, and hopefully to maintain morale and chivalry, I will try to explain the misunderstanding.

The term "antibiotic" translates from its greek etymology to mean "against fit life" meaning killer of all organisms: bacteria, fungi, protozoa, eukaryotes, prokaryotes-- the whole shebang.

Secondly- You will NEVER read a legitimate study claiming 100% efficacy for any treatment. Hell, Penicillin only works about half the time anymore. Do not trust anybody who tells you that anything works every time because they are being flippant and trying to push a product.

Thirdly- We all know that there is a wide spectrum of knowledge on these forums. Some know very little, some know a decent amount, and some know a ton. Before we get angry at something someone says, just remember that there are two ways to use knowledge: to teach or to belittle. I know that nobody here intends to give anybody faulty information, and it is VITAL that when somebody does give bad info, somebody needs to step in and correct that (as Charlie did). I'd encourage that we all take a more tactful approach to constructive feedback in the future as far as personal attacks, but on the same note-- do not make 100% claims that you yourself are not 100% certain on.

After all, we all learned a lot from this thread, and attacks aside, this serves as a perfect referral thread to anyone looking to get rid of Ich (myself included...)

I see this kind of thing go down all the time at school and in the hospital, and disagreements can and should happen, and if you are tactful with your tongue-- then everyone stays maximally informed and not angry.

I will now step off my soapbox and get back to work.

Happy reefing!
~Zach
 
We already had this straightened out, and we already have moved on. I am at work now, so I don't have the stats with me(of course they could be wrong), but I will post the info later showing the success rates of copper & hypo. There are certain individuals that are trusted in my point. To say that I cannot quote a % rate because I can't back it up is silly. But that's ok, no big deal. And like I said, I'm going from memory(?), so it could be wrong. I'll post it later.

You certainly don't have to follow Kellys advice as thousands do. That is your choice! I certainly am not threatening anybody! LOL !
 
mysterybox;235573 wrote: We already had this straightened out, and we already have moved on. I am at work now, so I don't have the stats with me(of course they could be wrong), but I will post the info later showing the success rates of copper & hypo. There are certain individuals that are trusted in my point. To say that I cannot quote a % rate because I can't back it up is silly. But that's ok, no big deal. And like I said, I'm going from memory(?), so it could be wrong. I'll post it later.

You certainly don't have to follow Kellys advice as thousands do. That is your choice! I certainly am not threatening anybody! LOL !

you completely missed my point. whatever.
 
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