Matrix and de-nitrate instead of sand or mud

[ripped tide]

I'm setting up the refugium to my 93 cube today. On the way to work I thought about different ways I could do this. I've decided that I'll try this method.

The bottom layer will be the smaller sized de-nitrate and then the top will be the matrix. No sand.

Any thoughts?

 

[ripped tide]

Might put a layer of crushed coral between the two, or under both

 

[jmaneyapanda]

What are you trying to accomplish by this?

 

[ripped tide]

I am just trying to gain the benefits that come from a deep sand bed (denitrification) but do it without using sand. The matrix and denitrate "should" provide an adequet anaerobic environment without the mess that sand can make. It may not work. I've never heard of anyone trying it, and don't see why it wouldn't work just as well, if not better than sand.

 

[ripped tide]

Change up! Bottom layer will be 15lbs crushed coral. And the top will be 2liters of matrix.

What I am trying to achieve: achievement itself

Achievement: happy tank, no nitrates, no sand near pumps, and a good anaerobic filtration bed that will possibly allow me to not use macro algae or chaeto.

We'll see how it goes, if it is a bust, I leanred something. If it is a success, I've learned something. Either way I'll know more than I did when I started.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

I still dont understand what youre trying to accomplish. Make a deep sand bad without sand? Thats not a deep sand bed. How is a DSB "messy" that denitrate or matrix fixes? If its flow related, then the larger particle matrix and denitrate will not be anaerobic.

No offense, but I think you're trying to reinvent the wheel, and it doesnt need to be reinvented.

 

[ripped tide]

we'll see how it works. Last time I checked this hobby is all about reinventing the wheel. A simple power head has evolved into a vortect.
Under gravel and plenum systems have been marked obsolete. Did they work? "sure" if you kept up with it.

New techniques are constantly popping up... If it doesn't work, o well, I'll tear it apart and start over.

 

[thanh386]

Ur making the wheel a square?

 

[mph84]

Amici;706449 wrote: Are you saying literally use the denitrate and matrix as a sand bed? I would ask this in seachems forum since from what I know about the products this is not really how they are intended to be used. They really need flow through according to seachems directions.

+1. I would put them both in seperate reactors.

 

[ripped tide]

I'll check with them and see. The packaging on matrix said it is ideal for this type of application. The denitrate needed to be at a flow of 50 gph or less, so I used crushed coral instead. I'll post pics in a build thread that I'll open tonight

Edit: And yes, I am literally using it as the sand bed

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Ripped Tide;706438 wrote: we'll see how it works. Last time I checked this hobby is all about reinventing the wheel. A simple power head has evolved into a vortect.
Under gravel and plenum systems have been marked obsolete. Did they work? "sure" if you kept up with it.

New techniques are constantly popping up... If it doesn't work, o well, I'll tear it apart and start over.

Sorry, we are going to have to agree to disagree. Good luck.

Edit:

Ripped Tide;706470 wrote: I'll check with them and see. The packaging on matrix said it is ideal for this type of application. The denitrate needed to be at a flow of 50 gph or less, so I used crushed coral instead. I'll post pics in a build thread that I'll open tonight

Edit: And yes, I am literally using it as the sand bed

The directions say its ideal to be used as a substrate? I cant find that that on the label.

 

[ripped tide]

I interpreted the directions with an open mind. They say that it can be used with any kind of filter.... Well this is</em> a filter.

Is there any particular reason why you think I shouldn't try this? Do you think it will fail? Have you tried it, or known someone who has tried it and failed?

You seen pretty determined that it won't work. I'm just curious if there is factual reason behind this, or if you are just a little pessimistic?

 

[ripped tide]

http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=63987">http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=63987</a>

Seachem is on board. The only issue I have had so far is that some of Matrix still had air stuck in the pores and floats. I'm sure that they will sink after a week or two.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Ripped Tide;706672 wrote: I interpreted the directions with an open mind. They say that it can be used with any kind of filter.... Well this is</em> a filter.

Is there any particular reason why you think I shouldn't try this? Do you think it will fail? Have you tried it, or known someone who has tried it and failed?

You seen pretty determined that it won't work. I'm just curious if there is factual reason behind this, or if you are just a little pessimistic?

I do not think it will work. Having a DSB that is functionally valuable requires anoxic zones. The relatively large size and space of the matrix and denitrate will 1) NOT allow anoxic regions (unless you have so little flow it becomes moot) and 2) will collect and trap detritus and debris creating nutrient pools. Making it far far far "messier" than sand. This is all in my speculation, of course.

Call me whatever you like, I just dont see how you can utilize this as a functioning denitrifying substrate. Especially without significant maintenance.

 

[izoid]

I think Marine Designs is doing this in their DT sump. I see no reason why it won't work but I think a mixture of bio balls and Matrix might be more effective.

 

[dme330i]

I've used Matrix in past tanks and my current tanks. Matrix harbors both nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria. IMO and IME it does a very good job of reducing nitrates and is an important component in running a LNS/ULNS. My experience involved:

- used in conjunction with carbon-dosing (vodka) to help feed the bacteria
- both in a reactor and passive in a sump (I think the reactor was more effective and efficient)
- important that you can shake the reactor or place it in a container where you can shake the matrix to dislodge any settled detritus - side benefit of feeding your corals when you shake it.

It's great stuff IMO and I will continue to use it.

Running 2 full liters in my 93G and planning to run at least 4 liters in my pending 330G.

btw - I would avoid bio balls altogether as they are extremely inefficient when compared with matrix. They also harbor more nitrifying bacteria than anything (i.e, efficient at processing nitrites, but they have little impact on nitrates).

 

[irahmatulla]

Ripped Tide;706281 wrote:
What I am trying to achieve: achievement itself

We'll see how it goes, if it is a bust, I leanred something. If it is a success, I've learned something. Either way I'll know more than I did when I started.

:yay::confused2::yay:

Amen sir. This being said, people claim that reef tanks are extremely expensive and also high maintenance. I have experienced and seen the otherwise. Life in general, including any and all hobbies should have the limits pushed and new ideas attempted. Think about the first surgery. Someone was like "I am gonna cut up this sick person, and make them healthy." (with having blood rushing out and pathogens get all up in the gaping wound) but look at us now, heart transplants and brain surgery. I am pretty sure it is worth a go! Keep us posted.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

izoid;706797 wrote: I think Marine Designs is doing this in their DT sump. I see no reason why it won't work but I think a mixture of bio balls and Matrix might be more effective.

They have a MRC Bio Sump that has the water flowing through the matrix, not using the matrix as a substrate, if Im not mistaken.

dme330i;706816 wrote: I've used Matrix in past tanks and my current tanks. Matrix harbors both nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria. IMO and IME it does a very good job of reducing nitrates and is an important component in running a LNS/ULNS. My experience involved:

- used in conjunction with carbon-dosing (vodka) to help feed the bacteria
- both in a reactor and passive in a sump (I think the reactor was more effective and efficient)
- important that you can shake the reactor or place it in a container where you can shake the matrix to dislodge any settled detritus - side benefit of feeding your corals when you shake it.

It's great stuff IMO and I will continue to use it.

Running 2 full liters in my 93G and planning to run at least 4 liters in my pending 330G.

btw - I would avoid bio balls altogether as they are extremely inefficient when compared with matrix. They also harbor more nitrifying bacteria than anything (i.e, efficient at processing nitrites, but they have little impact on nitrates).

Indeed. Matrix is wonderful material, and can and does grow both nitrifuying and denitrifying bacteria. An important issue is what you mentioned- maintaining debris that settles. If using as a substrate, this would collect a MASSIVE amount of debris and detritus will collect.

 

[ripped tide]

The way this refugium is set up, the water will flow through/over it. There are 2liters(1.5") of matrix above 3" crushed coral. I only have my phone for Internet right now and don't have tapatalk. If anyone would mind posting pics for me, we could all get a better understanding of how I have it set up. Most of the debris should fall through to the coral. I plan on maintaining the matrix and keeping it relatively clean.

 

[izoid]

Did you all read the OP? He indicated that the matrix would be used in the refugium instead of mud or sand. How does this differ than what Marine Designs is doing? I did not read that it would be used to replace the sand in the DT, maybe I am missing somethig.

Running Matrix in a simp will increase available bio filtration, this is a good thing. I see NO reason not to try it and I personally believe it will be succesful. One thing to remember is that manufacturers often exagerate their claims regarding products. Balance is a key to success in this hiobby, don't put all your eggs in one basket.