No Water Changes

[russ]

Has anyone seen posts by a guy named Glennf from the Netherlands on some of the other forums?

He has an amazing tank, does no water changes, and has a dosing method that keeps his parameters in check. He even will does Nitrate and Phosphate... He makes product that is sold through LFS in the Netherlands, but getting it here seems it would be expensive.

I know this is controversial and understand why so I'm not looking to get flamed. However, it is obvious his process works, his tank looks great. Now I am intrigued. Is anyone here doing something similar or is there someone local you may know who is doing this that is not on the forum?

I am just setting up my tank and would love to experiment with this. What I DO NOT want to do is buy expensive premixed product.

I eally am looking for good dialog and if someone is doing this locally, I want to learn.

 

[tonymission]

Why don't you look into the triton method then? Same concept with way more precision (best testing methods) and also no water changes.
Much more "available" in the states too.

 

[russ]

tonymission;1013071 wrote: Why don't you look into the triton method then? Same concept with way more precision (best testing methods) and also no water changes.
Much more "available" in the states too.

Funny you say that. Dave made a great post on R2R about that system. #5 http://www.reef2reef.com/forums/reef-aquarium-discussion/179685-triton-method.html">http://www.reef2reef.com/forums/reef-aquarium-discussion/179685-triton-method.html</a>

I am looking to learn water Chemistry and make my own. Ca, Mag, Baking Soda... these are very cheap. I don't want to pay $20 for a bottle of Epsom salt and RO/DI.

 

[butch]

There are members on this forum who don't do water changes, J.B. being one of them. If I recall correctly, it has been 2 years since he has done a water change.

Here was one of his recent threads that discussed it. http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=96790">http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=96790</a>

As a disclaimer, these pictures do not do his tank justice.

 

[skriz]

Water changes do far more than replace elements, so you'll want a plan in place for nutrient export too.

You'll find water changes to be the cheapest method of maintenance and element replacement, though. However, if your tank is big enough, you can make your own mix for less. I have clients where that works out much better for them.

 

[marquiseo]

It's doable. I haven't done a water change since my tank setup last November. I used Red Sea Coral Pro Dallas my foundation. I use the Red Sea Reef Program to replenish my traces through testing for them using the kits. The only trace I really monitor is potassium because it depletes faster than the rest but not at the speed of alkalinity. The only issue I have is gaining nitrates. My nitrates are always 0 and I do not like that. I have dumped loads of food and reef energy a and b but can't seem to raise it appropriately. I have since stop dosing no pox in an effort to raise it over a 3 weeks time frame.
My sps, mostly the maricultured are starting to change color (to green, purple, blue, or all 3) as I am continuing this journey without WC.

Somethings to consider though when doing this:

-Run Carbon always to remove containments and change it schedularly and don't miss it. Because of no WCs, you are more than likely building up toxins by dipping your hand in the tank and possibly from corals.

- keep your hands out your tank as much as possible. This advice related to the above bullet.

- keep a detailed log.

- Test, Test, and more Testing. Eventually you will be able to see when something is wrong in your tank.

- Have a ultra great skimmer. (Key equipment)

-Don't do multiple changes to your system all at once.

 

[jennm]

Whenever I see somebody boast about a tank where no water is changed, and how great it looks, I just wonder how much GREATER it would look if the keeper did water changes.

Shortcuts like that don't last forever.

JMHO - as always.

Jenn

 

[marquiseo]

There is more than one way to do things in this hobby. Just because your notion of doing is differrent or has been done since the hobby started doesn't mean that it will be that way forever. Modernization always occur. It has been proven that it is no longer necessary and the beauty of which is debatable.

 

[bulkrate]

The triton/Dutch methods appear to work quite well. But IMO for those with smaller tanks the risks and cost of laying in the 12-odd traces needed to keep parameters in check are way more expensive than simply changing out water.

Personally, I hate testing. If any one of the myriad vaporware products actually came to market that reliably did all in one testing I'd toss my kits in the trash in a heartbeat. No way I'd want to swap being concerned about just salinity and keeping alk stable to do a battery of tests bi weekly. Water changes simply match my current level of interest and available tank time.

But yeah, as pointed out - there's more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[ralph atl]

Skriz;1013088 wrote: Water changes do far more than replace elements, so you'll want a plan in place for nutrient export too.

You'll find water changes to be the cheapest method of maintenance and element replacement, though. However, if your tank is big enough, you can make your own mix for less. I have clients where that works out much better for them.

I agree Raj. Easiest, simplest, and most inexpensive with some exceptions.

BulkRate;1013139 wrote: The triton/Dutch methods appear to work quite well. But IMO for those with smaller tanks the risks and cost of laying in the 12-odd traces needed to keep parameters in check are way more expensive than simply changing out water.

Personally, I hate testing. If any one of the myriad vaporware products actually came to market that reliably did all in one testing I'd toss my kits in the trash in a heartbeat. No way I'd want to swap being concerned about just salinity and keeping alk stable to do a battery of tests bi weekly. Water changes simply match my current level of interest and available tank time.

But yeah, as pointed out - there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Out of the hundred or so photos of hobbiest using this method, I've only seen 4 or 5 that were really decent. Almost all of them have very little bioload, and fewer with sticks. Most are horrid looking with large leathers and cyno and algae in corners, etc...

But yeah, you want a tank full of rock, gsp, 10 green chromis with almost zero maintainence....

Of course, that just what I have seen, and I do agree that there are a couple that are over the top, just not that many...

 

[bulkrate]

And from my perspective, RalphATL nails it... I've only looked at the reef builders feature on the process a while back (and of course they'll only link to the success stories). It sure works for the guy who developed it, but yeah it seems there's more to the technique than is commonly mastered secondhand.

Regardless... for my foray, I appear to have been able to keep my little cube o' nems, softies and macroalgae alive & kicking for the past few years without major pharmacopeia outside of a 30-40% weekly change out. Easily done on a 9 gallon nano And for dirt cheap, too.

 

[marquiseo]

Triton method is still new and the DSR method has just now become a big deal and accept by others according to Glen. We won't see any real results from other hobbyist doing those methods immediately. Primarily because most of the hobbyists that are trying it out are switching because they aren't pleased with their current way of reefing and the results they are getting are unfavorable. So that disaster is going to carry over until they get a full understanding of their system. Then we will start to see better pics.

 

[raz0945]

I had rather do the water changes than the testing(I do test). That many test kits and the time to do the testing, would get expensive. It doesn't take much to lose a tank, most people would get lax on testing.

 

[russ]

These are great comments. I've read them all and I am going to re-read them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jennm]

In my experience, MOST people are lax on testing.

I can't tell you how many times people would have chronic problems with their tank, *finally* bring me a water sample, and be astonished that something was awry. Usually it was nitrate through the roof, but not always.

Once I had a customer who was testing everything but specific gravity... his fish were alive but he couldn't keep a coral or invert. His tank was at 1.010. He had no idea that he needed to change water with SALTWATER. His pH, ammonia, nitite, nitrate were all fine...

Lots of people don't want to spend the money on test kits, and if they do, they buy crappy ones (cheap API kits that are woefully inaccurate), and once things 'look' OK they just quit testing.

I'm not saying that all people that don't change water, don't test, but I can testify that a lot of people will preach about testing etc., but fail to do it with any regularity themselves.

Then when disaster strikes, they never saw it coming.

There are a lot more lackadaisical people than there are meticulous ones, I don't care what they say in forums like this one. I've seen it literally hundreds of times.

Jenn

 

[ralph atl]

JennM;1013255 wrote: In my experience, MOST people are lax on testing.

I can't tell you how many times people would have chronic problems with their tank, *finally* bring me a water sample, and be astonished that something was awry. Usually it was nitrate through the roof, but not always.

Once I had a customer who was testing everything but specific gravity... his fish were alive but he couldn't keep a coral or invert. His tank was at 1.010. He had no idea that he needed to change water with SALTWATER. His pH, ammonia, nitite, nitrate were all fine...

Lots of people don't want to spend the money on test kits, and if they do, they buy crappy ones (cheap API kits that are woefully inaccurate), and once things 'look' OK they just quit testing.

I'm not saying that all people that don't change water, don't test, but I can testify that a lot of people will preach about testing etc., but fail to do it with any regularity themselves.

Then when disaster strikes, they never saw it coming.

There are a lot more lackadaisical people than there are meticulous ones, I don't care what they say in forums like this one. I've seen it literally hundreds of times.

Jenn

my perception was totally opposite, but I now am actually sure you are sooo correct after spending a year on facebook forums for a few minutes each day, lol...HORROR!

I would now feel honored and attentive to all those questions that I (we) thought some of them should have researched a bit....OMG!
I literally have fish smarter than some of these people....

 

[russ]

I could definitely see where I would get lazy on testing. Water changes is not issue for me as it is mostly turning a few knobs, but as I think about my system and the future of it, I want to review what people are doing with success. The idea of dialing something in and leaving it is a dream, but it sounds to me that is not the case .

Nothing is never easy with this hobby, except mistakes.

 

[bulkrate]

IMO the key to most of the no-water-change approaches is some kind of battery test (Triton Water Lab, Thrive in-store testing appliance, in-tank/sump Mindstream Water Monitor, etc) that can give you a quick, consistent view of your relevant parameters. Heck, I'd probably sign up/buy into one of them even with my stated preference for the shotgun cure that is yon regular water change.

The downside of the above testing options? Most of them don't actually exist despite being featured and/or announced for the past 2-3 years.

The weak link in all of this is always the hobbyist (i.e. "Us"), it seems. We get too cheap, or too lazy, or too busy or end up too poor to do the scheduled stuff all the time and at the time it should be done and as a result the maintenance regimen becomes a treatment regimen. It would be great to know that on MY tank I need to dose in 10 mg of Potassium, 20mg of carbonate and 3-4 mg trace of calcium & magnesium to keep everything under the sun happy long-term and to have the periodic shifts in water chemistry/livestock needs made apparent. Or that trace amounts of copper were building up but perhaps under the radar of the average test kit. That's at least 5 tests to run routinely and quite franky, likely four more than I suspect my flawed lab techniques will yield actionable results on.

But what a wonderful day it would be to no longer doubt the stats.

 

[skriz]

This is a VERY old "method" that's been going around for decades. It's going cheap morphed into something more complicated than it needs to be. Originally, it was "how long can I go without a WC". Then, certain elements started being added, etc., etc.

I've personally dealt with one large system for many years that employs this method due to some extremely poor planning when the system was originally built. Weekly water tests in a lab and recorded (years of data here). I don't see anything positive with this system (hence why I'm involved now). Anyway, If you do not want to buy expensive stuff, you're most economical method will be water changes with a good salt mix.

I haven't seen the guy's system you're referring to, but is it along the lines of the zeovit tanks (ULNS, pastel colours, etc.)? If so, you'll want to really look into your skimmer tech and potassium levels.

 

[marquiseo]

russ;1013482 wrote: I could definitely see where I would get lazy on testing. Water changes is not issue for me as it is mostly turning a few knobs, but as I think about my system and the future of it, I want to review what people are doing with success. The idea of dialing something in and leaving it is a dream, but it sounds to me that is not the case .

Nothing is never easy with this hobby, except mistakes.

Testing is not done daily. You may need to test each day of the first week to get your parameter depletion rate but that's it. You would eventually test monthly and pretty soon rarely because you would be able to look at your system and no when something is low on something and then you test to add the desired amount.

Things can be easy but I see a lot of "the blind leading the blind" in this hobby. No one is about progression of this hobby unless it's some fancy gadget made by the big MAP companies. "If its a cheaper alternate way , it must not work" is the mindset that is tossed around form old to new hobbyist.

If you do the math, the cost for a WC will outweigh the cost of just dosing the amount of traces and essential elements a tank needs. Here is an example:

=============================================================
220G tank
10% WC every week (22G)

Red Sea Coral Pro Salt 175G Bucket - $66.99 (lasts 7.9 Weeks: 2 months)
Calcium Supplements -~$15 (500ml lasts 2months; faster with sps)
Alkalinity Supplements - ~$15(500ml lasts 2months)
Magnesium - ~$15 (usually lasts a year)

Over a year - $596

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
220G Tank
No WC

Calcium Supplements - ~$15 (500ml lasts ~2 months; faster with sps)
Alkalinity Supplements - ~$15 (500ml lasts ~ 1 month)
Magnesium Supplement - ~15 (lasts a year)
Trace Elements (Red Sea for example) $12 a 500ml Bottle x 4 (should last a year; potassium will deplete the fastest) - $48
Carbon Dosing (optional NoPox) -~$15


Over a year - $348 (based on initial salt mix have correct parameters from the start.)

==============================================================================
This is just a quick mock-up it may be flawed somewhere due to fast typing while at work but it gets most of the readers to understand the perception. Also, salt choice may be cheaper but it may take more to get the desired levels. You can simply do the math yourself and see how much it costs.