No Water Changes

BulkRate;1013491 wrote: IMO the key to most of the no-water-change approaches is some kind of battery test (Triton Water Lab, Thrive in-store testing appliance, in-tank/sump Mindstream Water Monitor, etc) that can give you a quick, consistent view of your relevant parameters. Heck, I'd probably sign up/buy into one of them even with my stated preference for the shotgun cure that is yon regular water change.

The downside of the above testing options? Most of them don't actually exist despite being featured and/or announced for the past 2-3 years. ;)

The weak link in all of this is always the hobbyist (i.e. "Us"), it seems. We get too cheap, or too lazy, or too busy or end up too poor to do the scheduled stuff all the time and at the time it should be done and as a result the maintenance regimen becomes a treatment regimen. It would be great to know that on MY tank I need to dose in 10 mg of Potassium, 20mg of carbonate and 3-4 mg trace of calcium & magnesium to keep everything under the sun happy long-term and to have the periodic shifts in water chemistry/livestock needs made apparent. Or that trace amounts of copper were building up but perhaps under the radar of the average test kit. That's at least 5 tests to run routinely and quite franky, likely four more than I suspect my flawed lab techniques will yield actionable results on.

But what a wonderful day it would be to no longer doubt the stats.

TBH i don't see the point in water testing companies. Some home tests can suffice for measuring the proper amounts to dose. If you decide later on that you would like to know then thats the consumers doing. The hobbyist should eventually be to look at his/her tank and ultimately know if something is wrong. There are always signs.
 
Glenn's tank:
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Dashti's tank (Triton)
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unknown Name (triton)
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There are more. i just cant visit those sites from the computer I am on
 
MarquiseO;1013546 wrote: Testing is not done daily. You may need to test each day of the first week to get your parameter depletion rate but that's it. You would eventually test monthly and pretty soon rarely because you would be able to look at your system and no when something is low on something and then you test to add the desired amount.

Things can be easy but I see a lot of "the blind leading the blind" in this hobby. No one is about progression of this hobby unless it's some fancy gadget made by the big MAP companies. "If its a cheaper alternate way , it must not work" is the mindset that is tossed around form old to new hobbyist.

If you do the math, the cost for a WC will outweigh the cost of just dosing the amount of traces and essential elements a tank needs. Here is an example:

=============================================================
220G tank
10% WC every week (22G)

Red Sea Coral Pro Salt 175G Bucket - $66.99 (lasts 7.9 Weeks: 2 months)
Calcium Supplements -~$15 (500ml lasts 2months; faster with sps)
Alkalinity Supplements - ~$15(500ml lasts 2months)
Magnesium - ~$15 (usually lasts a year)

Over a year - $596

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
220G Tank
No WC

Calcium Supplements - ~$15 (500ml lasts ~2 months; faster with sps)
Alkalinity Supplements - ~$15 (500ml lasts ~ 1 month)
Magnesium Supplement - ~15 (lasts a year)
Trace Elements (Red Sea for example) $12 a 500ml Bottle x 4 (should last a year; potassium will deplete the fastest) - $48
Carbon Dosing (optional NoPox) -~$15


Over a year - $348 (based on initial salt mix have correct parameters from the start.)

==============================================================================
This is just a quick mock-up it may be flawed somewhere due to fast typing while at work but it gets most of the readers to understand the perception. Also, salt choice may be cheaper but it may take more to get the desired levels. You can simply do the math yourself and see how much it costs.


Dosing sucks though, let's be honest.
And I do a ton of it with my half-zeo program.

I'm trying to figure out what's most benefitting my tank and scale back on it more. Keep doing water changes constantly with my LM3. I don't care about the money side but time and worry, if away on business, makes me want to reduce my dependence on my own daily presence.
 
The problem with either method - water changes or no water changes, is that without testing, things can go very wrong.

Again, this is something I've seen over and over - from the most carefree hobbyist, to the one that panics if they are a day late with their regular water change. If you aren't testing at least occasionally to see what is going on, there is no way to know if the method is actually working - looks can be deceiving in the short term, and things can turn bad suddenly, in the long term, if a wayward parameter or two is left unchecked past the point of no return.

Just like testing - people get lazy with dosing too. Life happens, priorities change. Even with automated dosing systems, the reservoirs have to be refilled periodically.

People being people, no system is foolproof.

Jenn
 
tonymission;1013561 wrote: Dosing sucks though, let's be honest.
And I do a ton of it with my half-zeo program.

I'm trying to figure out what's most benefitting my tank and scale back on it more. Keep doing water changes constantly with my LM3. I don't care about the money side but time and worry, if away on business, makes me want to reduce my dependence on my own daily presence.

I guess it varies based on user. Dosing for me is easy. I initially test over a week time span and set my dose based on the depletion rate and it has been pretty consistent. When the supplement runs low like my Reef Energy A & B for example, I just simply swap bottles for a new one. With water changes, I have to do the mixing and so on then make sure that it is pretty close to the parameters in my tank or else it can cause issues such as sps bleaching due to different dkHs. The minor traces only dose every .5 every two weeks for all except potassium which is dosed at 1mL every two weeks. other than that, its just Nopox-4ml 2x a week, Alkalinity- 6mL daily, Calcium 6ml every other day and Magnesium manually start the dose for it when it gets low.
 
MarquiseO;1013586 wrote: I guess it varies based on user. Dosing for me is easy. I initially test over a week time span and set my dose based on the depletion rate and it has been pretty consistent. When the supplement runs low like my Reef Energy A & B for example, I just simply swap bottles for a new one. With water changes, I have to do the mixing and so on then make sure that it is pretty close to the parameters in my tank or else it can cause issues such as sps bleaching due to different dkHs. The minor traces only dose every .5 every two weeks for all except potassium which is dosed at 1mL every two weeks. other than that, its just Nopox-4ml 2x a week, Alkalinity- 6mL daily, Calcium 6ml every other day and Magnesium manually start the dose for it when it gets low.

I just use a salt that mixes at my desired parameters. Takes as long as it takes me to dump 14 cups of salt into 30g RODI water (1.026... not sure why it's not 15 cups, but hey---). You can find just about any range of parameters with the various salts.

Problem with that is your consumption is always going to change as corals grow so you can't do it blindly. I started at 18 ML 2 part dosing and now I'm at 62 ML daily. In a few months maybe... you still have to baby sit all that and your tank is teetering on the edge, dependent on dosing. Can it be done? Sure. Is it modern, advanced, the new way of thinking? I'm not so sure.

Just seems like a lot more of a pain in the butt, but making water changes easy is a big part of me being OK with doing them.
 
tonymission;1013592 wrote: I just use a salt that mixes at my desired parameters. Takes as long as it takes me to dump 14 cups of salt into 30g RODI water (1.026... not sure why it's not 15 cups, but hey---). You can find just about any range of parameters with the various salts.

Problem with that is your consumption is always going to change as corals grow so you can't do it blindly. I started at 18 ML 2 part dosing and now I'm at 62 ML daily. In a few months maybe... you still have to baby sit all that and your tank is teetering on the edge, dependent on dosing. Can it be done? Sure. Is it modern, advanced, the new way of thinking? I'm not so sure.

Just seems like a lot more of a pain in the butt, but making water changes easy is a big part of me being OK with doing them.

That is true, I will have to adjust my dosage which I don't mind. I will just test and adjust accordingly. But if I were to do this with WC, I will soon not be able to replenish my elements via WC only. My total costs will soon multiply because I will doing both WC and dosing elements just to get what I desire. My current way is just to eliminate WC right now. Which hasn't been any adverse effects. Could it be a long term problem? Maybe. Could it be a short term problem? Maybe. The same answer could be for WC. Nothing is guaranteed in this hobby and seem like a roll of a dice at some point.

For me money is factor. Of course, I have high end equipment but I still would like to save money somewhere. This has been my way to do so. So to the OP, yes, it's possible and easy to do. I just prefer not to use the Triton Testing at this point because I haven't had any issues due to toxins or nutrients.
 
MarquiseO;1013593 wrote: ... Nothing is guaranteed in this hobby and seem like a roll of a dice at some point...

You're discounting the only thing that's pretty much guaranteed in this industry: water changes are the easiest, most stable, and safest thing you can do to your aquarium.

Skipping water changes may </em> (or may not) end up being cheaper (using your numbers), but nothing is easier than a wc.

I don't own a salt company, so it doesn't benefit me one bit if everyone does wc's or not. But, I have worked on millions of gallons in aquariums and have been able to see for myself the benefits (disregarding all of the data I've read).

That, and the guarantee that if something is going to go wrong, it'll happen when you're out of town. Every time.

But, I may be drifting off on a tangent now..hopefully OP has gained some insight into all sides.
 
Skriz;1013600 wrote: You're discounting the only thing that's pretty much guaranteed in this industry: water changes are the easiest, most stable, and safest thing you can do to your aquarium.

Skipping water changes may </em> (or may not) end up being cheaper (using your numbers), but nothing is easier than a wc.

I don't own a salt company, so it doesn't benefit me one bit if everyone does wc's or not. But, I have worked on millions of gallons in aquariums and have been able to see for myself the benefits (disregarding all of the data I've read).

That, and the guarantee that if something is going to go wrong, it'll happen when you're out of town. Every time.

But, I may be drifting off on a tangent now..hopefully OP has gained some insight into all sides.

WC aren't guaranteed. That's what some people like to think. Bad RO water or bad salt can cancel out a well thought out WC. It is a random occurrence and can happen. Yes, salt company's can fix the batch but at the cost of your tank already destroyed. And who knows that 100% the issue is related to the water's chemistry. WC doesn't fix SPS bleaching but it can contribute to it by giving the water more clarity which increases light penetration. Yes it is the easiest. No it is not the most stable. Changing 10% weekly in, let's say, tonymissions frag tank, will not be enough alone to sustain. You would have to do multiple 100% WC just to keep up. IF a hobbyist's Ca tests 300ppm and the salt mix measures at 420ppm. He does 10%-20% WC. That will NOT raise his Ca from 300ppm to 420ppm. That's basic math that doesn't need to be calculated. The amount of WC will increase over time which is no different from dosing. The only difference is that I will have to test according to know where my parameters are and adjust when I see growth or conduct a monthly test or so. I have more control.

WC are only good for replenishing elements to an extent and nutrient reduction. Even so WC will only work for so long solo. And for nutrient reduction, to make huge impact on the nutrients, you will have to do multiple WC or one large WC just to get it down. It's not like doing 10% WC will remove 10% of your nutrients.

And if you are out of town, your tank can go wrong as well. You can't do your WC while you are gone. I do have controllability of what is being dosed and how much. If I see something is being slightly overdosed, it can be shut off.
 
Raz0945;1013201 wrote: I had rather do the water changes than the testing(I do test). That many test kits and the time to do the testing, would get expensive. It doesn't take much to lose a tank, most people would get lax on testing.:D
I couldn't agree more with you
 
Pretty interesting conversation... the biggest concern for me with no WC is nutrient exportation. For those of you doing little to no water changes, what is your method?
 
JBDreefs;1013624 wrote: Pretty interesting conversation... the biggest concern for me with no WC is nutrient exportation. For those of you doing little to no water changes, what is your method?

No Pox, Skimming, Carbon

NoPox worked to well for me to the point where I had no nutrients and couldn't raise it even when add large quantities of food to the tank. I have finally been able to get nutrients by taking it off line for 4 days now, nitrates 5 (api and Red Sea) and phosphates 0.08(Hanna). Now all I have to do is start a dose 4mL twice a week to try and maintain it at 5ppm nitrate and .04 phosphates and adjust accordingly.
 
Not real familiar with No pox. It looks like a form of carbon dosing. Correct?
 
MarquiseO;1013625 wrote: No Pox, Skimming, Carbon



NoPox worked to well for me to the point where I had no nutrients and couldn't raise it even when add large quantities of food to the tank. I have finally been able to get nutrients by taking it off line for 4 days now, nitrates 5 (api and Red Sea) and phosphates 0.08(Hanna). Now all I have to do is start a dose 4mL twice a week to try and maintain it at 5ppm nitrate and .04 phosphates and adjust accordingly.


One of the things I read reading Glennf's writings is that he actually doses migrate and phosphate. I did not understand that, but I assume this is why. It makes more sense to cut back on the carbon so I'm not sure why he doses.

Did you post pics of your tank?

Also do you have any salinity issues by salt being removed from the system do to creep and/or skimming?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
MarquiseO;1013611 wrote: WC aren't guaranteed. That's what some people like to think. Bad RO water or bad salt can cancel out a well thought out WC. It is a random occurrence and can happen. Yes, salt company's can fix the batch but at the cost of your tank already destroyed. And who knows that 100% the issue is related to the water's chemistry. WC doesn't fix SPS bleaching but it can contribute to it by giving the water more clarity which increases light penetration. Yes it is the easiest. No it is not the most stable. Changing 10% weekly in, let's say, tonymissions frag tank, will not be enough alone to sustain. You would have to do multiple 100% WC just to keep up. IF a hobbyist's Ca tests 300ppm and the salt mix measures at 420ppm. He does 10%-20% WC. That will NOT raise his Ca from 300ppm to 420ppm. That's basic math that doesn't need to be calculated. The amount of WC will increase over time which is no different from dosing. The only difference is that I will have to test according to know where my parameters are and adjust when I see growth or conduct a monthly test or so. I have more control.

WC are only good for replenishing elements to an extent and nutrient reduction. Even so WC will only work for so long solo. And for nutrient reduction, to make huge impact on the nutrients, you will have to do multiple WC or one large WC just to get it down. It's not like doing 10% WC will remove 10% of your nutrients.

And if you are out of town, your tank can go wrong as well. You can't do your WC while you are gone. I do have controllability of what is being dosed and how much. If I see something is being slightly overdosed, it can be shut off.

The same applies to dosing: bad chemicals, dosing 1 ml when you need 100 ml, faulty dosing pumps, faulty test kits, etc. Dosing like that will destroy your corals and can kill your fish. It's a non-argument as outliers apply universally.

Stick with a quality salt mix and you practically don't have the possibility of tainted salt. Go cheap and you have to deal with fluctuating parameters. It's not a matter of what "some people like to think", it's a sound and proven standard. You may opt to do something different, but that doesn't diminish its value. Can it be done with wc alone? Not easily. Dosing of some form will make life a lot easier and reduce cost. The non-wc approach is trying to take the cost saving portion one step further by eliminating one expense. But, I think it's doing so at the expense of x (nutrient export, time, etc.).

Increased water clarity is now an issue and you're advocating less clear water so your corals don't bleach? Really?
 
russ;1013641 wrote: One of the things I read reading Glennf's writings is that he actually doses migrate and phosphate. I did not understand that, but I assume this is why. It makes more sense to cut back on the carbon so I'm not sure why he doses.

Did you post pics of your tank?

Also do you have any salinity issues by salt being removed from the system do to creep and/or skimming?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, sometimes it becomes so effective at removing those two and it becomes a pain. Yes, you can cut back but your bacteria pop will still continue to grow until eventually they die off due to starvation which sometimes doesn't happen right away. While that is going on, your corals are paling out due to not enough nutrients so its just easier to add nutrients. That's why I do it.

I haven't posted a recent display pic but I will soon. I haven't updated here as much as my others.

Nope, my top-off is pretty consistent. I check the SG every now and then when I do maintenance on my tank and it is always spot on at 1.026 which I calibrate to make sure its correct each time.

Keep in mind that this can be tedious for some if you have a busy schedule but it fits my schedule at night time. I do all the maintenance at night before preparing for bed when I do, do it.


Skriz wrote: The same applies to dosing: bad chemicals, dosing 1 ml when you need 100 ml, faulty dosing pumps, faulty test kits, etc. Dosing like that will destroy your corals and can kill your fish. It's a non-argument as outliers apply universally.
Yes, all those can be bad but I can catch bad chemicals before lots of it is being dosed into the system from when I swap out bottles of supplements. If I dosed 1ml instead of 100mL, all I had to do was look at my dosers UI and see how much was dosed and click "manual dose" to add the other 99ml. Not being a "smart ***" but it is simple as that. I perform maintenance on my equipment same as anyone who does do WCs to prevent failures.

Skriz wrote: Stick with a quality salt mix and you practically don't have the possibility of tainted salt. Go cheap and you have to deal with fluctuating parameters. It's not a matter of what "some people like to think", it's a sound and proven standard. You may opt to do something different, but that doesn't diminish its value. Can it be done with wc alone? Not easily. Dosing of some form will make life a lot easier and reduce cost. The non-wc approach is trying to take the cost saving portion one step further by eliminating one expense. But, I think it's doing so at the expense of x (nutrient export, time, etc.).
Define Quality salt mix. Is it the proper portions of each element in the mix? Or is that it worked for you so its defined as quality? Does it apply to pricing? IO for example, is cheap, some say its quality but other say its not because it doesn't mix well and occasionally a bad batch is sent out. It, also, takes more of it just to reach the desired SG of 1.026. Like I said cheap doesn't mean, bound to fail. In that case, don't use IO salt. Also, fluctuations happen more with WC than with dosing. I have direct control of the amount of elements going my system while you have varying with every WC and salt mix. Then you have to adjust those parameters either too high or too low with supplements just to get where you want to be. It's not about cost saving tbh, it's about not doing something that is necessary; taking control of your system. The Triton Method, DSR, and Zeovit(uses WC) is all about stripping your tank water down and putting everything back at the amount you would like and continuing based on that. For someone new into this hobby, yes, you can teach them about WC until they catch on to dosing and knowing their tank. Ultimately, it ends with their desire of how their system should be taken care of.


Skriz wrote: Increased water clarity is now an issue and you're advocating less clear water so your corals don't bleach? Really?

I see you were a bit confused on this, so I will clarify for you. I never said having clear water was a direct issue but I can tell you how it can be in relation to bleaching.

For example, Jack does a WC but has not used carbon or any water clarity products because he knows that his WC will correct the clarity and this is done every 2 weeks. His tank has now become clearer and now more of his LED is penetrating through the water. His LPS were used to an equivalent of 40% output but now that his water has cleared and at a sudden rate, his blasto has now bleached or burned due to the sudden increase of output coming through.
 
The clarity issue is really for first time carbon users. I've never heard of a WC changing the water so much that the lights are now more intense. If so then you need to do more than one water change per year.

Also, when you make new water, you test it for the two things that can really mess up your tank: alk and SG. Every time I read about a bad mix causing problems it's never accompanied by "I tested my new water and saw it was 3 dkh but decided to use it anyway".
 
tonymission;1013710 wrote: The clarity issue is really for first time carbon users. I've never heard of a WC changing the water so much that the lights are now more intense. If so then you need to do more than one water change per year.

Also, when you make new water, you test it for the two things that can really mess up your tank: alk and SG. Every time I read about a bad mix causing problems it's never accompanied by "I tested my new water and saw it was 3 dkh but decided to use it anyway".

"Yellowing" naturally occurs over time. So as the amount of "yellow" increases the amount of light penetrating through is lessened. So when you remove it quickly after it has been reduced for so long, you can instantly burn sensitive corals.

If you lights are at the normal output of 85%. "Yellowing" occurs and reduces the penetration amount to 65% over a course of 2 weeks. You now do WC which clears the water and increases intensity to 75%, for example. With LEDs, this can be deadly to low light corals with a instantaneous change like that.

I use carbon and coral snow with aggressive skimming to reduce "yellowing".


As for the testing for those key parameters, you are 100% correct but most don't do it. I would say about 3/10 hobbyists usually do.
 
MarquiseO;1013712 wrote: "Yellowing" naturally occurs over time. So as the amount of "yellow" increases the amount of light penetrating through is lessened. So when you remove it quickly after it has been reduced for so long, you can instantly burn sensitive corals.



If you lights are at the normal output of 85%. "Yellowing" occurs and reduces the penetration amount to 65% over a course of 2 weeks. You now do WC which clears the water and increases intensity to 75%, for example. With LEDs, this can be deadly to low light corals with a instantaneous change like that.



I use carbon and coral snow with aggressive skimming to reduce "yellowing".





As for the testing for those key parameters, you are 100% correct but most don't do it. I would say about 3/10 hobbyists usually do.


You don't need to explain it to me. :)

My point was that a normal WC will not dramatically reduce your "yellowing" if it's such a problem that it's blocking some of the light. The only thing that will do that is a sudden use of carbon without ramping it up. Anything else is gradual enough for your corals to acclimate properly, if, even, that "anything else" will reduce the yellow effect enough to increase par; which is doubtful.
 
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