ORA Corals
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Just to interject.....
If I buy a maricultured SPS colony and it is identical to the Tyree Pink Lemonade, then should I sell frags as Tyree Pink Lemonade or name it something on my own or just sell it as a acro?
See the thing is, if I sell it as a Tyree then people will scream its not the same, even though it is. Nature and the ocean created it, Tyree marketed it.
If I name it Tim's super pinky or some other crap, people will say it is a tyree and should be called as such.
Or if I name it plain old acro and then try to charge a fair price near or under the market rate for a pink lemonade, people will say its not a LE and therefore isn't worth the money.
The problem with the naming issue is there is no standard or certificate. There is no standardizing body to control these things. The only reason Tyree, Tubs, and ORA, and anyone else is accepted is they staked the claim first.
Anyone have any thoughts on these questions?
Just my 2 cents,
Tim
If I buy a maricultured SPS colony and it is identical to the Tyree Pink Lemonade, then should I sell frags as Tyree Pink Lemonade or name it something on my own or just sell it as a acro?
See the thing is, if I sell it as a Tyree then people will scream its not the same, even though it is. Nature and the ocean created it, Tyree marketed it.
If I name it Tim's super pinky or some other crap, people will say it is a tyree and should be called as such.
Or if I name it plain old acro and then try to charge a fair price near or under the market rate for a pink lemonade, people will say its not a LE and therefore isn't worth the money.
The problem with the naming issue is there is no standard or certificate. There is no standardizing body to control these things. The only reason Tyree, Tubs, and ORA, and anyone else is accepted is they staked the claim first.
Anyone have any thoughts on these questions?
Just my 2 cents,
Tim
If you find a coral like the miracultured pink lemonade look a like I will pay you $120 for it just pm me. 
If you did not buy it form someone with linage then you have no right to sell it as pink lemonade. If it looks just like it which I doubt it would as I have been looking for years then sell it as a pink lemonade look alike. If I was you I would put a small premium on it but not as much a the original. Or put it in the display and sell frags.
People will always ***** but hard core sps people will know a nice coral when they see it and usually will pay a small premium for it. That is if it's unique not just 1 of 1000 like it that just came on the market and every online store has them for sale. JMO
Funny thing is I seem to be sticking up for naming corals but am not really a huge fan of so called LE.
As for the standards you and I have talked about that before. I agree totally with you and our so called aquarium associations does nothing to really improve the hobby for the hobbyist. They should be the one to set up standards. I would be happy if the were was a 1" sps frag requirement.
As for certificate what good would that do? What do I cut a tab off my certificate and give that to someone who buys a frag.
Live aquaria sent me one time I laughed and threw it away.
Joe
If you did not buy it form someone with linage then you have no right to sell it as pink lemonade. If it looks just like it which I doubt it would as I have been looking for years then sell it as a pink lemonade look alike. If I was you I would put a small premium on it but not as much a the original. Or put it in the display and sell frags.
People will always ***** but hard core sps people will know a nice coral when they see it and usually will pay a small premium for it. That is if it's unique not just 1 of 1000 like it that just came on the market and every online store has them for sale. JMO
Funny thing is I seem to be sticking up for naming corals but am not really a huge fan of so called LE.
As for the standards you and I have talked about that before. I agree totally with you and our so called aquarium associations does nothing to really improve the hobby for the hobbyist. They should be the one to set up standards. I would be happy if the were was a 1" sps frag requirement.
As for certificate what good would that do? What do I cut a tab off my certificate and give that to someone who buys a frag.
Live aquaria sent me one time I laughed and threw it away.
Joe
I see your point but think ORA can afford to get the real deal. ALso they have done this with other coral such as Oregon Tort and Cali tort the did not find these corals.
If you are obsessed with sps like I am you know this otherwise usuless info.
Here is were the Orgon tort really came from along with several other of their coral are Tyree LE.
http://www.upscales.com/genwebpage.ihtml?formid=1">http://www.upscales.com/genwebpage.ihtml?formid=1</a>
If someone wants to split an order I want one of their other corals. :) Sorry Tim.
Joe
[QUOTE=][B]ares;337906 wrote:[/B] I think people might just complain no matter what... cant please everyone.
its rare, not impossible, but rare to get something like that though. some more so than others of course. I mean, chance of a purple monster suddenly popping up in a random acro bag? doubt it... or a colony of purple hornet zoas? it could happen. but its rare.
real question is. if Im ORA, and I just happen upon buying a Tyree XYZ acro from a fellow reefer, no lineage to it, but tyree himself cant tell it apart. do I call it tyree without knowing it is? or do I give it my own name? That ORA and Tubs coral appear the same perhaps, but if they called it tubs, there would be many wanting proof. which perhaps they cant provide, and shouldnt need to since they are not suggesting it is. If you want to think its the same as the tubs, go for it. but tubs didnt create it, I doubt tubs even harvested it. tubs just named it, its not ORAs place to use that name to sell their own product, even if its out of respect.[/QUOTE]
If you are obsessed with sps like I am you know this otherwise usuless info.
Here is were the Orgon tort really came from along with several other of their coral are Tyree LE.
http://www.upscales.com/genwebpage.ihtml?formid=1">http://www.upscales.com/genwebpage.ihtml?formid=1</a>
If someone wants to split an order I want one of their other corals. :) Sorry Tim.
Joe
[QUOTE=][B]ares;337906 wrote:[/B] I think people might just complain no matter what... cant please everyone.
its rare, not impossible, but rare to get something like that though. some more so than others of course. I mean, chance of a purple monster suddenly popping up in a random acro bag? doubt it... or a colony of purple hornet zoas? it could happen. but its rare.
real question is. if Im ORA, and I just happen upon buying a Tyree XYZ acro from a fellow reefer, no lineage to it, but tyree himself cant tell it apart. do I call it tyree without knowing it is? or do I give it my own name? That ORA and Tubs coral appear the same perhaps, but if they called it tubs, there would be many wanting proof. which perhaps they cant provide, and shouldnt need to since they are not suggesting it is. If you want to think its the same as the tubs, go for it. but tubs didnt create it, I doubt tubs even harvested it. tubs just named it, its not ORAs place to use that name to sell their own product, even if its out of respect.[/QUOTE]
Daddy want one
sailfish;337734 wrote: Jeremy I know you are very passionate about that issue and have see you debate it with others on RC but can't remember what you would suggest to correct it or improve it.
I see were your coming from but see know way to fix it. I know you like nice fish and corals sometimes the only way to find a specific coral is to give it a name. Yes it is abused and used to increase profit but that will not change no matter what you do crooks will be crook and find a way around what ever barriers you put in there way..
I know that the pink lemonade acro is an example to me. It is priced very high but now that I have one I think it was worth the money. If we did not name corals I doubt I would have ever had a chance to get it. Jose on the west cost had the coral shared pictures of it and sold some frags of it. Since that time the coral has been passed threw out the hobby and I got my piece from G. Carroll another well know sps guy. Do I have papers to prove it No, but this coral is so unique it hard to find one even close to it.
What I am getting at is I would not have known to look for the frag at MACNA and most likely would have never purchased it based on looks because their was not much to look at as it was so small. LOL It is still only a 3/4 to 1" tall. Did I buy this coral because it had a name? No I bought it because I had seen enough pictures of it that I knew it was something really nice and unique. If you can't tell that the coral your buying is the original then don't buy it.
I do wish it would have been cheaper because I would have bought it alot sooner but if I had to I would pay for it again. I think I paid $75 for 1/2". Usually I would not buy a frag if it's that small but I really wanted this one.
Long story short I like really unique looking sps like you like rare fish. If I have to put up with named corals to find beauties like this then I will.
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Joe
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But, here is the point:
It doesnt matter if its called "ORA Beef Supreme", or Acropora maneyapanda. They buy what they se and like. The previous two names may identify the EXACT same coral (from the same mother colony, with the same everything). SO, should one justifiably cost 50X more than the other? Simply because of the name? That is the way it is now. For example, one of ORA latest releases was a purple rimmed green cap, commonly known as "Leng Sy cap" (although there is no really no TRUE Leng Sy cap out there, but that is another long tired story). So, why do people pay &80 for this coral, when they can get one cheaper, maybe even free from a fellow reefer? Only because it brandishes that ORA name.
As far as lineage, that is a giant, steaming pile of sasquatch bowel movement. Reefers and Coral porpogators can "lineage" their corals as far as I can be a ballerina. Simply telling someone, to their face< "Hey I bought this coral from Atlantis", or Tyree himself, or Karl Unarce, or whoever, lineages a coral as much as me telling everyone I bought every single last one of my corals from Jacques Cousteau. It means NOTHING, unless you trust the person. And then the coral is trustworthy, not lineaged. Until an organization, that is independant of any specific coal farm, and preferably includes a consortium of those exact farms and retailers, can create an organization which will universally organized, classify, and maintain record of exact transaction of coral, lineaging will be yet another way for a coral retailer to "pull the wool" over the eyes of a consumer. Another way to price gouge, by suggetsing a "royal line", which cant be proven in any way, whatsoever. Do I think this will happen? Not in a million years. The greed and dishonesty his so out of hand in the coral propogation business, that the current farmers will never want it to change. There is no current checks and balances, so it is a free for all. Like going to Hong Kong, and walking through the market and seeing all the knock off designer products. Even though it is completely feasible, on paper (there is a system for dogs- the AKC, for zoo animals- ISIS, etc). The only glitch in it, is that these animals do not reproduce sexually, for the vast majority of home aquarists. So, what is a generation? What is wild caught vs. F1, F2, etc etc etc?
It doesnt matter if its called "ORA Beef Supreme", or Acropora maneyapanda. They buy what they se and like. The previous two names may identify the EXACT same coral (from the same mother colony, with the same everything). SO, should one justifiably cost 50X more than the other? Simply because of the name? That is the way it is now. For example, one of ORA latest releases was a purple rimmed green cap, commonly known as "Leng Sy cap" (although there is no really no TRUE Leng Sy cap out there, but that is another long tired story). So, why do people pay &80 for this coral, when they can get one cheaper, maybe even free from a fellow reefer? Only because it brandishes that ORA name.
As far as lineage, that is a giant, steaming pile of sasquatch bowel movement. Reefers and Coral porpogators can "lineage" their corals as far as I can be a ballerina. Simply telling someone, to their face< "Hey I bought this coral from Atlantis", or Tyree himself, or Karl Unarce, or whoever, lineages a coral as much as me telling everyone I bought every single last one of my corals from Jacques Cousteau. It means NOTHING, unless you trust the person. And then the coral is trustworthy, not lineaged. Until an organization, that is independant of any specific coal farm, and preferably includes a consortium of those exact farms and retailers, can create an organization which will universally organized, classify, and maintain record of exact transaction of coral, lineaging will be yet another way for a coral retailer to "pull the wool" over the eyes of a consumer. Another way to price gouge, by suggetsing a "royal line", which cant be proven in any way, whatsoever. Do I think this will happen? Not in a million years. The greed and dishonesty his so out of hand in the coral propogation business, that the current farmers will never want it to change. There is no current checks and balances, so it is a free for all. Like going to Hong Kong, and walking through the market and seeing all the knock off designer products. Even though it is completely feasible, on paper (there is a system for dogs- the AKC, for zoo animals- ISIS, etc). The only glitch in it, is that these animals do not reproduce sexually, for the vast majority of home aquarists. So, what is a generation? What is wild caught vs. F1, F2, etc etc etc?
I'm all for pretty corals and I applaud the things that all the "coral farmers", including ORA, are doing to aquaculture the specimen that are in demand! The thing that hasn't been mentioned (if it has, I missed it) is the fact that there is no such thing as an exclusive coral. There are certainly ones that are rarely seen but any coral was collected somewhere in the world and I seriously doubt that it would be the only example of it's species that was out there so eventually more of it will be collected. We have no way of knowing that ORA didn't find that coral in a recent shipment and decided it was worth investing some time and money to aquaculture it. This is the same thing that Tubs, Tyree, Atlantis and the other smaller scale "coral farmers" do. Many of them have connections to the importer and are able to cherry pick the stuff as it comes in or have access to the collectors and get preferential access to the things they are bringing up. As with anything, whether it sells and for how much will depend on supply and demand. How pretty the coral is and the availability of the coral will determine how much the market will pay for it.
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Ditto. Joe, if you ever want to sell a piece of pink lemonade send me a PM.
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Some of my coolest looking SPS frags were $5 frags from Tim. I just buy what looks cool. I don't care about names, but if there's a common name that helps identify what I'm looking for, then that's what I have to ask for. If people had look-a-like zoas for VDM, PH, LOTR, etc, then I'd be cool with that.
I am all about look a likes myself. I personally would rather buy a Mircultured piece then a frag any day of the week but sometime the LE are worth the price & sometimes there not.
Look at the war coral it was really unique for a time now they come in all the time. I have a 4" long piece that I paid what a 1/2" frag the original LE would have cost me. Can't beat that.
Sometimes their are not look a likes out there. Alot of times something is new to the hobby but really there ends up being thousands of them hit the market all at once or spread out over a few months. Look at all the african blue hornet look a likes out there right now.
I would be happy to see ORA take corals like the PL and propagate it as long as the call it what it is.
Joe
Look at the war coral it was really unique for a time now they come in all the time. I have a 4" long piece that I paid what a 1/2" frag the original LE would have cost me. Can't beat that.
Sometimes their are not look a likes out there. Alot of times something is new to the hobby but really there ends up being thousands of them hit the market all at once or spread out over a few months. Look at all the african blue hornet look a likes out there right now.
I would be happy to see ORA take corals like the PL and propagate it as long as the call it what it is.
Joe
CooL you say that. I am looking at some sweet "poor man's" ph that a friend has had since last year. Both deep water japanese, but one without the alternating skirt and one missing a center ring, but has it around the mouth. ALOT CHEAPER TOO. T each their own.
Joe, I swear I have that same mont. Came from Cap bay as a unnamed aquaculture, neither tubs or ORA.
I'm with you though, but I cant blame ORA for their successful marketing. People are crazy for their stuff, and will pay the 75 for a frag (which coincidentally will nearly buy a whole, nice aquaculture colony at some stores)
I guess if I could rename my corals and then sell them for 10x original cost, I might be tempted as well. But I am part of the problem, not the solution...
I'm with you though, but I cant blame ORA for their successful marketing. People are crazy for their stuff, and will pay the 75 for a frag (which coincidentally will nearly buy a whole, nice aquaculture colony at some stores)
I guess if I could rename my corals and then sell them for 10x original cost, I might be tempted as well. But I am part of the problem, not the solution...
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youre kinda proving my point. From NOBODY you know what youre getting. You see what it is, and you buy it or not. Period. Whether you trust them or not, does not make the coral any more or less "lineaged".
With cars, you CAN determine if it is real or not. There are checks and balances. There is an authority and a creator to confirm. With corals, there is not.
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This is all exactly my point. LE is a sham. Sure, it may be a very rare species, morph, whatever, but once it acquires the name, and is identified beyond what the standard taxonomic is for it, it is no genuine. Let me explain. Lets say you purchase Joe Smith's Blood Red Acro from Joe Smith himself. You are confident you have the "true" coral, and this is fine- for you. But what happens beyond that? Can you sell it to anyone as Joe Smith's Blood Red Acro? If so, how do you prove it? The buyer must have trust in you, but will have no other method or idea of the "genuity" of that coral. They MUST trust you.
You may only buy corlas from people you trust. That is smart and logical. But it has NOTHING to do with lineaging or "real" or "fake" corals. It only makes YOU comfortable with teh corals YOU purchased. But it wont mean anything to anyone else.
In the "lineaged" corals do not bear any type of indication of their reality. It is all subjective and opinionated as to what is reality. That is why "fakes" exist, and why coral farmers will never wish to get rid of this sales technique. They can take a coral, name it, and charge a permium for it. How many times have you seen "Leng Sy Cap" for sale? Do you think its the Montipora Capricornus that Lend Sy had? It is not. That coral died, and there was no propogation of it. Yet, everyone and their mother will sell it as such.
