pappone.my quest for the magic bullet continues

jmaneyapanda;103932 wrote: Being the devil's advocate that am, I have to agree with Cameron (amongst others). Jaime, there is no magic bullet. There will always be a tradeoff.

The quest to get our corals to grower quicker, faster, stronger, and more colorful than in nature, while appealing on the surface, is a dangerous path to try when investing in your tank. I am a bit of naturalist at heart, and think that the long term effects can be seen in an aspect.

It's been said plenty of times before but worth pointing out here once more, I think---

While your point is very well taken, there is nothing natural to begin with about keeping living corals in a small glass box...

As chris pointed out, it may be there's nothing "magic" about it at all--just another way to try and create the ideal conditions in which a coral will grow and look its best.
 
jessezm;104012 wrote: One of the differences between the world's reefs and our tanks to consider, though, is that despite the lack of nutrients in the ocean water near reefs, there is still a constant supply of food available to corals on the there, especially considering all those moonlit planktonic blooms. In the ocean, however, between the tides, wave action, beaches, and myriad micro organisms, and sheer volume, nutrients stay low despite the constant influx of food.

This is something we cannot replicate very well in our tanks due to the amount of food and filtration it would take. Instead, it seems we recreate one condition (either a lack of nutrients or a bunch of food) at the expense of the other. Either we have well fed corals whose growth/health is limited by poor water conditions, or potentially happy, but N-limited corals living in very "clean" conditions.

The pappone method tries to address this--I think--by making more food available to corals, as well as nutrients in the form of amino acids and immediately available levels of Ca, Mg, and Alk, while at the same time trying to mitigate the effects of such supplementation by encouraging the growth of bacteria to consume the extra nitrates/phosphates introduced by the heavy feeding. Heavy protein skimming then aids in removing these nutrient-fattened bacteria.

As with anything else we put in our tanks, constant vigilance is key to assessing the effects. I don't believe that the pappone feedings are creating a ticking time bomb, personally, but I base that one what I see happening in my tank. There are pretty basic indicators like algae growth which can tell you a lot about what's going on well in advance of the need to make major changes.

.

Oh, Yes, Jesse, I absolutely agree with this, but my point is more along these lines: While there are areas of the oceans that are filled with tremendous food particles, and low nutrients, where the refs grow now, there are ALSO areas with high nutrient and high food availbility, and these are not reef areas.

I guess what it boils down to is you can add goasoline to your tank, if you have enough proper export to get it out effeciently. However, I think this is WELL beyond the scope of what hobbyists can do. Perhaps I am naive in thinking this, but I would guess there are just as much, if not more, problems (such as nuisance algae, etc) and failures from this than success.
 
jmaneyapanda;104021 wrote: Oh, Yes, Jesse, I absolutely agree with this, but my point is more along these lines: While there are areas of the oceans that are filled with tremendous food particles, and low nutrients, where the refs grow now, there are ALSO areas with high nutrient and high food availbility, and these are not reef areas.

I guess what it boils down to is you can add goasoline to your tank, if you have enough proper export to get it out effeciently. However, I think this is WELL beyond the scope of what hobbyists can do. Perhaps I am naive in thinking this, but I would guess there are just as much, if not more, problems (such as nuisance algae, etc) and failures from this than success.

Yeah, I think plenty have failed with this method as well. The key, as you pointed out, is exporting the extra nutrients. This is in theory addressed with the sugar dosing and heavy skimming. But it's easier said than done. In my case, I have the protein skimmer to do the job, and I have definitely noticed a measurable increase in production and stinkyness (thanks to the bacteria, I believe), but I have still had problems getting all the detritus to my skimmer. This, I believe, is why I had some hair algae problems even before starting with the pappone. I have recently addressed this in part by adding two Vortech pumps which keep everything in suspension much better. I'll be watching and hoping the algae recedes, as I have never had any measurable nitrates (salifert) or phosphates (Hach).

As far as those others who have failed, I have no doubt that the pappone threw off what may have been a pretty tentative "balance" in the first place...

Having said all this, I will still agree with Cameron that some of the most stunning tanks I've seen have been those that are hands-off. For instance, look at Rit's tank. He's got a crappy skimmer (sorry bud!), and not a lot else going on in there, but the corals in his tank are what I only dream of having in mine...

It just comes down to this: there are a lot of different ways to skin a cat, and what works for some folks doesn't work for others...
 
jessezm;104023 wrote: Yeah, I think plenty have failed with this method as well. The key, as you pointed out, is exporting the extra nutrients. This is in theory addressed with the sugar dosing and heavy skimming. But it's easier said than done. In my case, I have the protein skimmer to do the job, and I have definitely noticed a measurable increase in production and stinkyness (thanks to the bacteria, I believe), but I have still had problems getting all the detritus to my skimmer. This, I believe, is why I had some hair algae problems even before starting with the pappone. I have recently addressed this in part by adding two Vortech pumps which keep everything in suspension much better. I'll be watching and hoping the algae recedes, as I have never had any measurable nitrates (salifert) or phosphates (Hach).

As far as those others who have failed, I have no doubt that the pappone threw off what may have been a pretty tentative "balance" in the first place...

Having said all this, I will still agree with Cameron that some of the most stunning tanks I've seen have been those that are hands-off. For instance, look at Rit's tank. He's got a crappy skimmer (sorry bud!), and not a lot else going on in there, but the corals in his tank are what I only dream of having in mine...

It just comes down to this: there are a lot of different ways to skin a cat, and what works for some folks doesn't work for others...

Well said.
 
What size portions of this pappone mix are you feeding your tank (size). i would think the portion size, and type of exporting you have, would be tied together in importants when trying this. do you just start very small with these feedings?

I deffinitly want to try this. What amio acids are you using?
 
I would recommend starting slowly and upping the dose slowly over a 2-3 week period, based on your observations. For my 200g tank , I'm currently feeding half of a standard ice-cube worth every night. About an hour before lights out, when just the actinics are on, I dose Seachem Reef Plus amino acids (20-30ml--just dump into a high flow area). I'd like to move to a more concentrated and specific AA supplement, like Elos or something similar, but I'm still working my way through the 2 liter jug of the Seachem stuff.

For export, my skimmer an 8" (ID), 29" (H) recirc meshwheel pulling 17 lpm of air. I change about 20% of the water with reef crystals salt every 3 weeks.

For calcium/Alk, I dose kalk in my topoff water and have a schuran calcium reactor. My Alk levels stay between 10-12, and my CA are a solid 450. mag is also high at about 1450ppm. pH ranges from 8.1-8.3.

Temp is 78-79, nitrates undetectable, phosphates undetectable (hach test kit). Lights are 8XT5's overdriven with IC660's, plus VHO actinic supplementation.

Oh, I also run GFO and Ozone is on a controller and comes on every now and then to keep ORP levels around 430 (they drop to the high 300's with the pappone feedings at night)
 
lol... poor rit..

well heres my theory on rits tank.... have you ever noticed how when you go on vacation and get your neighbors to feed your fish, and somehow someway, even when you measure out the amount of fish food to be given to the fish every day, come back to an empty can of flakes?? and the answer is always the same- "but the fish looked hungry"... heres my point, dont the corals seem to look better too?? How many people out there have noticed that when they overfeed their fish, their corals also tend to look better?? yes its gonna increase your bioload, but why did the coral look healthier, why the increase PE??
Rits tank stunning and mind blowing as it is, might be the result of an inefficient skimmer leaving the water coloumn not so clean, but then again he doesnt need a good skimmer hes only got like 3 fish in there... :fish:

(p.s thats a hint to buy my octopus)

i've always liked living on the edge and i use gnc's amino acid gel capules.. i cut the top of the capsule and squeeze the milky white paste into the pappone. (reminds me of my teenage acne days).. at $10 for a 2 month supply it works great.. but its safer to stick to what jessee says.. and of course tapering the dose slowly...
 
Back
Top