Quick advice needed... kalk and cloudy water

cr500_af;345485 wrote: I have a QT prepared, but it would be all new water (I usually use 1/2 tank water to fill it when I need to use it, but obviously I can't do that in this case).

Even though the pH went up very fast, so far all the fish and the shrimp are acting perfectly fine... the RBTA is moving around, but other than that it is inflated and seems OK.

Get the QT tank filled just in case you need it. New water is better than bad water if the fish or coral is in trouble.

I move my stuff at the first sign of trouble, but I have an established tank set up in another area of the house and a QT always set up.
 
cr500_af;345485 wrote: Some of my corals did close up, but they are opening back up slowly now.

Acting on the first response in the thread, I started doing water changes 3 gallons at a time, and now (3 hours later or so) it is around 8.5. That's .3-.4 change.
I'll slow the recovery down some now.

I know changes should be gradual, but I didn't know it should be THAT gradual. With the pH that high I was sort of panicky and thought that the longer they were in that water the worse the chances were.

I did a quick search of WWM when it happened, but everything I could find about lowering a too-high pH was freshwater related.

If something is dead when I get up tomorrow I'll be crushed.

Also, a public thank-you to Dr Necropolis for calling me and helping search for answers, not to mention testing a water sample with his probe at midnight. We wanted to see if I was really at 8.8 or if that was just where the API kit "topped out".

If it were me, I would stop there for tonight. Add an airstone to the tank if you have it (to elevate oxygen levels) and let the tank stabilize.

And don't turn off the lights in the tank unless you have a fuge on a reverse cycle, because you want to avoid the nighttime pH drop and lower oxygen levels.
 
Here's a good article on high pH:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-03/rhf/index.php#6">http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-03/rhf/index.php#6</a>
[B]Adding vinegar[/B] is another option for reducing pH. It has two actions that lower the pH. The first happens instantly, as the acetic acid releases H<span style="font-size: 1-1px">+</span> to the aquarium water (a process called ionization):
[INDENT] <span style="font-family: Georgia">8. CH<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 1-1px">3</span></span>COOH </span><span style="font-family: Wingdings">à</span><span style="font-family: Georgia"> CH<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 1-1px">3</span></span>COO- + H+</span>
[/INDENT] This effect is shown graphically in Figure 8 (step 1). Then, over a period of time (perhaps hours), the acetate is metabolized by bacteria and other organisms, using up the available oxygen and producing carbon dioxide:
[INDENT] <span style="font-family: Georgia">9. CH<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 1-1px">3</span></span>COO- + O2 </span><span style="font-family: Wingdings">à</span><span style="font-family: Georgia"> 2CO2 + H2O + OH- </span><span style="font-family: Wingdings">à</span><span style="font-family: Georgia"> CO2 + H2O + HCO<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 1-1px">3</span></span>-</span>
[/INDENT] This effect is shown in step 2 of Figure 8. The net result of both reactions is that the acetic acid is converted into carbon dioxide, lowering pH (Figure 8). The real and measured [IMG]http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2002/chemistry.htm">alkalinity is reduced</a> a bit by the initial vinegar addition (equation 8), but that loss is exactly replaced when the acetate is metabolized (equation 9). The only concerns with using vinegar are overshooting the pH target by adding too much, and the consumption of oxygen by bacteria metabolizing the acetate. With sufficient aeration or photosynthesis, that O<span style="font-size: 1-1px">2</span> loss is not necessarily a problem, but in some aquaria, adding too much vinegar might cause a significant drop in O<span style="font-size: 1-1px">2</span>.


In another recent test, I bought a commercial bottle of distilled white vinegar (Heinz; Figure 9), and added it to my sump. The sump was stirring well with a large skimmer, but was not circulating through the main display tank during this test. The ~38 gallons of sump water's pH was initially measured at 8.53. After 25 mL of vinegar were added and allowed to mix in for a few minutes, the pH dropped to 8.41. Another 25 mL of vinegar dropped the pH to 8.15. A third 25 mL dose dropped the pH to 7.88. These data serve as the basis for the [IMG]http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-03/rhf/index.php#recommend">recommendation</a> that I make later in this article of using 1 mL of distilled white vinegar per gallon of aquarium water to achieve an initial pH drop of about 0.3 pH units.

Some solutions to pH problems are peculiar to a specific cause, such as adding [IMG]http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.htm#6">vinegar</a> to limewater, or using less of it. Some general solutions, however, are frequently effective. My recommendations on how to deal with high pH problems are detailed below.
[B]The most benign way to reduce high pH is to aerate the water more[/B]. Whether the aquarium looks well-aerated or not, if the pH is above 8.5 and the alkalinity is not above 4 meq/L, then the aquarium is not fully equilibrated with carbon dioxide in the air. Equilibrating carbon dioxide can be much more difficult than equilibrating oxygen. Air contains very little carbon dioxide (about 350 ppm) relative to oxygen (210,000 ppm). Consequently, a lot more air needs to be driven through the water to introduce the same amount of carbon dioxide as oxygen. Perfect aeration will solve nearly any high pH problem, and will rarely cause any problem of its own.
That said, sufficient aeration is not always easily attained, and other methods can be useful. These other methods are:
[INDENT] [B]A. Direct addition of carbon dioxide[/B]. Bottled soda water (seltzer) can be used to instantly reduce aquarium pH. Be sure to select unflavored soda water, and check the ingredients to be sure it doesn't contain anything that should be avoided (phosphate, etc). Many manufacturers list water and carbon dioxide as the only ingredients.
I recommend adding 6 mL of soda water per gallon of tank water to reduce pH by about 0.3 units. Add it to a high flow area away from organisms (such as in a sump). The local pH where it first is added will be very low. Going about this procedure slowly is better than proceeding too fast. If you do not have a sump, add it [B]especially[/B] slowly. Some soda water may have more, or less, carbon dioxide in it, and the lower the aquarium's alkalinity, the larger will be the pH drop. Also, the higher the pH, the smaller will be the pH drop, because the buffering of seawater declines steadily as the pH drops from about 9 to 7.5.
[B]B. Direct addition of vinegar[/B]. Commercial distilled white vinegar (typically 5% acetic acid or "5% acidity") can be used to instantly reduce aquarium pH. Do not use wine vinegars as they may contain undesirable organics in addition to the acetic acid.
I recommend adding 1 mL of distilled white vinegar per gallon of tank water to initially reduce pH by about 0.3 units. Once again, add it to a high flow area away from organisms (such as in a sump). The local pH where it first is added will be very low. Going about this procedure slowly is better than proceeding too fast. If you do not have a sump, add it [B]especially[/B] slowly. The lower the aquarium's alkalinity, the larger will be the pH drop. Also, the higher the pH, the smaller will be the pH drop, because the buffering of seawater declines steadily as the pH drops from about 9 to 7.5. Remember, there may be an additional, later drop in pH as the vinegar is metabolized to carbon dioxide.
[B]C. Addition of vinegar via limewater[/B]. Commercial distilled white vinegar can be used to reduce tank pH by adding it to [IMG]http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.htm#6">limewater</a> that is subsequently added to the aquarium. Do not use wine vinegars as they may contain undesirable organics in addition to the acetic acid. A [IMG]http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.htm#6">reasonable dose</a> to start with is 45 ml of vinegar per gallon of limewater.


[/INDENT]
 
Off to put in airstone and turn the actinics back on. Thanks a lot for the advice. I owe you one, Tokejr.

If I get by without losing any of my animals, I'll owe you a lot more than one. A six-pack at least!
 
cr500_af;345498 wrote: Off to put in airstone and turn the actinics back on. Thanks a lot for the advice. I owe you one, Tokejr.

If I get by without losing any of my animals, I'll owe you a lot more than one. A six-pack at least!

You don't owe me a thing.......fingers crossed for a good turnout.
 
tokejr;345500 wrote: You don't owe me a thing.......fingers crossed for a good turnout.

Well, the least I can do is say this: You are another example of why this club is great. If there were an option to buy a lifetime membership I'd do it.
 
cr500_af;345501 wrote: Well, the least I can do is say this: You are another example of why this club is great. If there were an option to buy a lifetime membership I'd do it.

blushing........

Now go get some sleep so you can get up early and run some tests on the tank.
 
Good idea. The big "test" I'm gonna run is a head count... here's hoping all 9 + the inverts are there to greet me.
 
If no CO2 bottle, you can take a two liter soda bottle and make a simple DIY CO2 producer for emergencies. Yeast, Sugar, water, and it will produce CO2 as it ferments. Run an airline from the lid of the bottle to the powerhead inlet. Its not a reliable method (the CO2 production drops off as it gets older) but it will work in a pinch. You can google "DIY CO2 Reactor" and find many different versions of it.
 
UPDATE: All livestock is seemingly OK. pH is stable though still high, and I'll slowly bring it down more through the day and night. I left the actinics, airstone and HOB filter running (the latter just for the aeration) during the night, and the pH is right where I left it when I went to bed... I don't know if that helped or not, but it didn't hurt and everything stayed the same overnight.

I'll see how the kids look when I get home.

Thanks again,
Barry
 
cr500_af;345527 wrote: UPDATE: All livestock is seemingly OK. pH is stable though still high, and I'll slowly bring it down more through the day and night. I left the actinics, airstone and HOB filter running (the latter just for the aeration) during the night, and the pH is right where I left it when I went to bed... I don't know if that helped or not, but it didn't hurt and everything stayed the same overnight.

I'll see how the kids look when I get home.

Thanks again,
Barry

Excellent news!
 
Barry - how's everything doing? Sorry I bailed on you last night...packed it in early for once.

grouper therapy;345411 wrote: I disagree
A qoute from Randy Holme Farley
Limewater can lose potency by reacting with carbon dioxide in the air, forming insoluble calcium carbonate. Since calcium carbonate is not an effective supplement of calcium and alkalinity in reef aquaria, the limewater can become less useful through this process. The rate at which this happens in large containers, such as plastic trashcans with loose fitting lids, is much less than many aquarists expect. There is, in fact, little degradation under typical use conditions. <u>Consequently, the dosing of limewater from such large still reservoirs can be just as effective as dosing using any other scheme, and may have substantial advantages.</u> These advantages include simplicity of the system and the ability to use organic acids such as vinegar to boost the potency. <u>The use of a reactor to dose limewater has the advantage of requiring less space, but does not have the oft-stated advantage of eliminating degradation by atmospheric carbon dioxide that is reported to plague delivery from reservoirs.</u>

Notice he said a container with a loose fitting lid and not completely exposed? The lid provides some level of protection from the air, albeit not completely, but some. Also, the film that is usually created from a kalkwasser mix will aid in keeping the air out of the solution. All of this depends on IF there is no air being induced into the solution (ie. pump/airstone).
 
I recently have begun adding pickling lime to my top off as well. This was primarily at the suggestion of Tom Wyatt who mentioned it in a thread a while back. I have only been doing it for a week or so and am very cautious. Probably not adding enough.

I use a 13 gal trash can for top off. I read where you mix it up in a bucket first...let it settle for 6+ hours and then pour the clear water into the ATO container as lime does not disolve well.

So far so good!
 
I just started using a kalk reactor (I love it) every thing is stable ph went from 7.8-8.0 to 8.1 with lights off and 8.3 with lights on cal has stayed at 480 and alk steady at 9...i am inlove with the kalk reactor
 
Ph has come down with very slow vinegar dosing.... luckily the wife was home sick today (how's that for a comment from a good husband?) so she was testing constantly.

All the fish are acting fine. The RBTA still has me concerned, but only time will tell I suppose. It moved around a lot and is now settled under the edge of a rock "cave". It is largely closed, with only a few tentacles out (but showing good color and they are inflated). I'm told that it is open more than it was earlier today.

Should I move it out into the light (which I know it needs) or leave it alone? How much "shade time" can it take without harm?
 
cr500_af;345840 wrote: Ph has come down with very slow vinegar dosing.... luckily the wife was home sick today (how's that for a comment from a good husband?) so she was testing constantly.

All the fish are acting fine. The RBTA still has me concerned, but only time will tell I suppose. It moved around a lot and is now settled under the edge of a rock "cave". It is largely closed, with only a few tentacles out (but showing good color and they are inflated). I'm told that it is open more than it was earlier today.

Should I move it out into the light (which I know it needs) or leave it alone? How much "shade time" can it take without harm?

I would leave the RBTA alone - let it find its own spot and don't stress it anymore trying to move it.

Now, take that advice with a grain of salt because I don't have a nem, never had a nem, and don't plan to get one anytime soon. I'm just basing my opinion on any animal in the same situation and moving, if not absolutely necessary, will create as much stress as being in unstable water.

Hopefully, someone who knows more than I do will come along soon and give you some good advice.
 
tokejr;345848 wrote: I would leave the RBTA alone - let it find its own spot and don't stress it anymore trying to move it.

Now, take that advice with a grain of salt because I don't have a nem, never had a nem, and don't plan to get one anytime soon. I'm just basing my opinion on any animal in the same situation and moving, if not absolutely necessary, will create as much stress as being in unstable water.

Hopefully, someone who knows more than I do will come along soon and give you some good advice.

That's my instinctive reaction as well, just want to make sure I'm not missing something obvious. Since I posted shortly ago it has opened more. As long as things are moving in a positive direction I will leave it alone.

Thanks for your advice (especially late last night).
 
cr500_af;345859 wrote: That's my instinctive reaction as well, just want to make sure I'm not missing something obvious. Since I posted shortly ago it has opened more. As long as things are moving in a positive direction I will leave it alone.

Thanks for your advice (especially late last night).

You are quite welcome. I'm just glad it helped.

I know if it was my tank, I would have been in an absolute panic. It's very easy to forget "nothing good ever happens fast in this hobby" at a moment like that.

on edit:

Remember to shut down the lights early tonight to give everyone some dark, calming down time. As long as the pH is reasonable.

I suspect the 24 hour lights are bothering the RBTA as much as the pH drama.
 
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