Reef under Siege - Waterbox AIO 50.3

[tbrennan]

Premier stocks bulldawg reef pods and photo now if that’s closer for you. Next day shipping with them was only 11.99 for me a few weeks back.

 

[siege]

I didn’t know ChatGPT was this advanced!!!
Sometimes, I don’t know if I should take credit for what I did. My son is 16 and he uses AI for everything. I encourage him since that’s the future.

As I work in tech, I had to make sure I knew how to use it. I was a manager at the time it hit the scene, and heavily encouraged my team to learn it, pronto. My mother occasionally uses it for research help when writing sermons, my wife for all sorts research, and my oldest son (not quite 12) is also just starting to use it as he goes through his AI course at Code Ninja.

It has its limitations that one needs to be keenly aware of (mainly that it hallucinates on occasion, and is a repository of internet-based knowledge, with all the flaws that implies) depending on how they are going to use it, but boy does it have its uses. I'm not keen on paying subscription fees, but given the use I get from it, it's been worth every penny for the paid-for version.

I say if you can grow your own Pod’s! Do this. It’s expensive treat for our tank and it’s easy enough for anyone to have separate systems running.

100% my intent. I just need to get a healthy and diverse population in the system at the start. They'll be going in the 14g 'fuge, where they should hopefully be fruitful and multiply without any predation. I'll introduce some CUC inverts into the fuge pretty early on, but I have no plans to put fish in it, just a nem, a coral or three (maybe) and eventually a sexy shrimp or three.

Really, I'm more interested in the ecosystem at large, than any specific fish, which I hope my livestock plan reflects - I've gone to no little pain to establish daphnia, freshwater copepods and scuds in my other tanks. The one fish I am kinda set on having is a Mandarin, and I definitely don't want to be buying pods all the time to feed it.

BRS did a test series years back, and isolated having a strong pod population as being one of the keys to a quick, healthy start with the shortest possible "ugly phases", without a lot of heroic interventions, expensive UV, chemicals, etc.

I forgot you have to setup QT tank. I personally never had bad issues with fishes other than when I overstock too fast and powder blue tang. I always buy from local lfs or from someone who is getting out. Their fishes are usually healthy.

I am indeed intending to stick with my preferred LFS as much as humanly possible. I've never bought saltwater fish from them before, but I've bought plenty of freshwater livestock, never had a mortality or even a hint of illness.

Still, as the tank matures and accumulates hundreds or even thousands of dollars worth of stock over time, I fully intend to do proper QT. Especially since I think I'd eventually like to add 3 - 5 blue-green chromis, which will absolutely require prophylactic treatment for uronema, for example. I've been very lucky in the past, so far, but while I'm happy to be lucky, I'm one who would rather count on skill, and hope for a dash of luck, rather than count on luck only for it to run out at the worst time.

Nitrite and Ammonia test kit are only used in the beginning, I skip these by just giving tank enough time to cycle

I have an ammonia kit already I use for my freshwater tanks. Admittedly, I probably don't need the nitrite tests, but, as before, you can't manage what you can't measure. As the tank goes through each of its phases, I intend to monitor and log quite a lot, especially water quality. With just shy of 30 years as an IT professional (where "visibility and control" is the name of the game, especially in my current role), despite my ADHD, I have definitely learned the value of note-taking and record-keeping, particularly with my background/interests in science and engineering. If I can't measure it, it becomes an unknown that will weigh on my subconscious, especially any time something seems off. Plus that way I can quantify my otherwise qualitative observations.

Bio medias takes time for its to mature and is effective in the system. I think having them seed and always ready is good. Specially for QT.

Yeah, that was kind of what I was thinking. With mature bio-media in a HOB filter, I should hopefully not need to do as many water changes in QT, or at least maybe not stress so much if I wind up getting a Sev1 outage and have to work an 18 hour day in the middle of a quarantine cycle. Definitely not a primary filtration method for the display tank, but it can't hurt to have a little space dedicated to it.

Okay, that’s a lot of tanks. Lol

(Left-to-right: 29g bow, 20g long, 10g, 3.5g. My office is that doorway to the left of the oven, "above" the left side of the 10g tank. In the hallway in the center you can see the open door to the laundry room and the mostly-closed bathroom that abut my office. A friend suggested this counter is where the 220g should go - my wife looked at me like I'd grown a second and third head.)

Mmmmmyep Room for at least one more in my office... though on consideration, while I think I can fit it in here...I'm not sure the floor in here can hold that 220 gallon tank I just picked up. And I intend to use the 75g I have for the sump for that tank, so, well over a metric ton of water alone, just in one spot

Maybe I need to find another 75g for in here. I'm sort of interested in trying my hand at discus fish, but would only want to do them in a large, heavily planted and mature tank, to see if I can buck the conventional wisdom that they need a 20% - 50% water change every 2 - 3 days... because I patently am not doing that. Not if it's not push-button, anyway.

I might have a sickness. Or maybe I'm just down with the fish-ness.

If you run into phosphate issue when system is running initially will likely need to be addressed right away instead of putting bandage over it.

Fair, but... the bandaid is meant to stop the bleeding while I figure out how to treat the wound. Still, I'll put this down at the bottom of the list as lowest priority.

"Alkaline Buffer, 300 g / 10.5 oz", $10.99 You should need this stuff
Should? Or shouldn't?
I dont think you will need this stuff? To bring your pH to like 8.2?

Also fair, on review. I have soda ash already for this express purpose. pH and TA on the water coming out of my filters is already at the bottom end of or below what my test strips read.

$25 to add enzyme to your tank seems very expensive. You can staple add raw fish meat.

I was planning to go with bottled enzymes on advice from a few others here because they're supposed to provide an immediate source of live nitrifying bacteria, which should help stabilize the tank faster and support early livestock. I know there are multiple ways to cycle, but I figured this method would give me the best shot at a smooth live-start.

Get medication as needed. I use LFS and they do keep them fish healthy.

Yeah, I did wind up moving them to the "Later" list. I'll want them all before my second round of fish so I can QT properly, but they shouldn't be needed for at least a month or two after I put water in the tank.

Red Sea Reef Energy Plus 250mL, $24.99 this amino stuff?
AB+ coral food. Yes, aminos, carbs, fats and vitamins. I heard many good things about this product. I think I have some too.

Yeah, it came well recommended, especially to use while starting the tank with a couple of mushrooms, xenia, or whatever I happen to wind up with.

Tropic Marin High Precision Hydrometer, $36.65 most people either pick hydrometer or refractometer.
I've heard arguments for and against both types. I figured maybe it wouldn't hurt to have both for a "second opinion", or if I don't want to deal with one or the other that day for some reason. Hydrometer is more accurate. Just make sure if you are going to get water from LfS’s. Test the water and make sure they are saltwater and not RODI. Also asked what brand and at what salinity they keep them and test them.

Oh, no chance I'm using LFS water. There aren't any remotely close enough for that even if I wanted to... plus the cost, transport...
No, my last reef tank taught me very well to have my own RO/DI filter. It was one of my absolute requirements, and I'm glad to have picked up a 7-stage as a package deal with the tank I bought.

The Tropic Marin hydrometer did indeed seem like the "pro" choice, as it were. My primary concern is that its accuracy is dependent on temperature... I guess there are conversion charts, but that's why I figured I should maybe have a refractometer as well, just in case I didn't have the time and wherewithal to adjust the water temp or needed another opinion. I'll have an Apex salinity probe in the tank, but that won't help me with mixing, etc.

Hey, huge thanks for your time and input!

 

[siege]

Premier stocks bulldawg reef pods and photo now if that’s closer for you. Next day shipping with them was only 11.99 for me a few weeks back.

Heh. That's actually a little bit further, no matter which way I cut the drive. The nearest places to me are still 30 - 45m away, unfortunately. I did reach out to two to see if they happen to stock pods.

 

[siege]

Aquascaping begins in earnest.

If only I had some idea of what I'm doing, lol. I kinda know what I want, but not really how I'm going to get there.

I haven't broken out the superglue yet, much less the reef mortar - I want to re-watch some videos first.

Suspect I still have a few more rocks to break up, loathe as I am to do it.

 

[siege]

Remote refugium is here!



Now I just have to finish designing and building a stand. Oh, and get a weir printed for it.

 

[siege]

Lights on for photography purposes only - promptly turned back off again.

Getting the temp up is going to be a slow battle until I get a spare heater in to put in the tank with the live rock, so I can get the intended pair of 150w heaters in here... leaving the live rock in the tank it's in for now so I don't shock the pods in it going from ~80ºF to 64.5ºF.

I need to get some test kits and whatnot in too - at this moment I don't think I trust what my Apex is telling me. I know the temp probe on it is bad - new one should be here next week - and I'm not sure about the ORP, pH and salt... salt is saying "1.2"... my refractometer says I'm right on 1.025. Regardless, I can't trust what it tells me (as the unit and probes we acquired second-hand as a package with the aquarium itself, and have been sitting in a bucket of water for at least a few months now) until I have a secondary source of data.



I frankly didn't do a ggrrrrreat! job of mixing my salt - certainly not the way I normally would before a water change, with plenty of time circulating and a heater bringing it up to temp ... I had 46-ish gallons to make, one 5 gallon bucket at a time, after all, and kind of figured it would finish mixing in the otherwise empty tank. Holy moly is that Aquaforest salt hygroscopic!

 

[project1004]

You might want to give those probes some time to settle in and it might give you the true value?!? Or you might be able to manually calibrate them as well?!?

Most of those probes on Apex do have purpose and are good to have in your system if you like those things?!?

I have two pH and two temp probe on my system. I watch the trend and not the actual number. When in doubt, time to pull out test kits. Lol

If I were you, I skip all the testing kits for like ammonia etc, you really need one for (alk, nitrate,phosphate). I’m sure all hobbyists can testify that these are only test that are truly needed.

As for the temp, I turn my temperature probes off when spring comes. It makes my pH go up and less power consumption. Granted your temp probe may say it’s 78-80 but it maybe 80-82 etc with light fixtures and pumps/reactors and what not.

I find out that my LPS tank runs 2 degrees cooler than my SPS tank. Differences is two wave makers and larger led. LPS tank peaks at 77 and SPS peaks at 79. That’s without heater.

I am setting up similar size tank too

 

[Mick]

But what’s the plan with the bucket of shells you showed at the start of this post?

 

[siege]

I have no doubt the probes have value, I want to be able to use them, for sure - only that I will need to replace them if they aren't accurate.

THAT... I dunno yet, lol. The sand I got from @scuba steve came with a ton of snail shells in it. I pulled out all the lighter-colored ones and put them in the bucket too. Unless I come up with a particularly good/interesting idea, I'll probably continue to hang on to them until I'm ready to stand up the 220g, which is so honking big that bucket of shells amounts to little more than a rounding error.

Maybe put a handful or two in with some of the leftover bits from my aquascaping as a rubble-zone in the back of my fuge?

 

[siege]

You might want to give those probes some time to settle in and it might give you the true value?!? Or you might be able to manually calibrate them as well?!?

Most of those probes on Apex do have purpose and are good to have in your system if you like those things?!?

I have two pH and two temp probe on my system. I watch the trend and not the actual number. When in doubt, time to pull out test kits. Lol

If I were you, I skip all the testing kits for like ammonia etc, you really need one for (alk, nitrate,phosphate). I’m sure all hobbyists can testify that these are only test that are truly needed.

As for the temp, I turn my temperature probes off when spring comes. It makes my pH go up and less power consumption. Granted your temp probe may say it’s 78-80 but it maybe 80-82 etc with light fixtures and pumps/reactors and what not.

I find out that my LPS tank runs 2 degrees cooler than my SPS tank. Differences is two wave makers and larger led. LPS tank peaks at 77 and SPS peaks at 79. That’s without heater.

I am setting up similar size tank too

Yeah, I'm letting them sit, but I'm not gonna hold my breath. Will have to wait and see what tests say. I have no doubt the probes have value, I want to be able to use them, for sure - only that I will need to replace them if they aren't accurate.

Before I posted last night, I'd ordered nitrate and pH tests. I already have ammonia kits for my freshwater tanks with plenty of tests left over. Since there won't be anything but a few lbs. of live rock I got from @shanepike in there while I finish my aquascaping, I didn't figure I had an immediate need for alk, mag or phosphate testing until there's actually some livestock in the tank other than pods.

The temp probe is beyond calibration and flat needs replacing. Where it was reading 80F in that pic, the water at that time was definitively 65ºF according to 3 other thermometers. I've tried calibrating it several times, which does exactly nothing (the calibration screen warns it's not for corrections more than just a few degrees off). It's been like this for weeks. It is at this moment 75.2ºF in the tank, and the temp probe is reading 99ºF. My plan/goal is to use the Apex to control the pair of heaters in the tank, as heaters tend to struggle in my 68F home and I have learned not to trust their internal temp sensors.

ORP seems to be right, or at least in expected range. pH may or may not be correct: I'm going to have to confirm when my actual test kit comes in. The salt sensor... I don't know what is up with, other than apparently I need a calibration solution, which I have also ordered and will be here Saturday.

 

[project1004]

I keep my eyes on Alk and pH. I personally see Nitrate and phosphate : condition of food
Alk and pH: condition of water.

I aim to keep alk and pH stable. So if you can get that salinity probe working, that’s really good one to keep eyes on.

68 degree seems nice actually. lol. I keep my house at 70-71. I knew those with larger system that turns off heater in the summer as well. Just a thought

 

[siege]

I'm only getting the nitrate test now just to confirm the cycle completes. I'll grab the phosphate test when I'm closer to adding stock, and test periodically just to see if I'm hitting the right nitrate-to-phosphate balance... around 10:1 or whatever it winds up being. (Though I once got scolded by BeanAnimal on R2R for suggesting that ratio to someone asking about algae issues - never mind their parameters were clearly out of whack and the tank looked like it was growing hair )

And yeah, we keep it cool in our home too - hoodie or light jacket weather year-round indoors. But if I turned off the heaters, with the evap I get and nothing else really heating the tank (only running 54 watts of LED right now), I’d be looking at tank temps hovering near 68 - 70°F. That’s just too low for a reef long-term. I know some larger systems with big thermal mass can cruise heater-free in summer, but this isn’t one of those.

 

[project1004]

I think the ratio they are going for is 100:1 nitrate/phosphate but I’m under impression that that was what they find in algae and not in the coral?!! I think every tank ends with its own parameters. My SPS is around 10-5 nitrate and 0.05-0.02 Phosphate when I do test sparsely. But I dose low ammonia and phosphate. I hope I don’t have to once setup this new one.

 

[siege]

I think the ratio they are going for is 100:1 nitrate/phosphate but I’m under impression that that was what they find in algae and not in the coral?!! I think every tank ends with its own parameters. My SPS is around 10-5 nitrate and 0.05-0.02 Phosphate when I do test sparsely. But I dose low ammonia and phosphate. I hope I don’t have to once setup this new one.

Yeah, the Redfield ratio (10:1 by weight/ppm, or 16:1 by atomic mass) is often cited as a rough baseline for nutrient balance, but it’s really just that - a starting point, not a strict rule. Every tank is going to land somewhere a little different depending on what’s in it and how it’s run, and that’s fine.

I understand tanks can thrive with ratios anywhere from 8:1 to 20:1. Go too far beyond that - like 30:1 or more - and from what I’ve read, you risk starving your corals and beneficial bacteria of phosphate. Neither nitrate nor phosphate should ever bottom out completely.

There’s pushback in the hobby that the Redfield ratio doesn’t have real value in reefing because it’s based on open ocean data, where nutrients are incredibly low and stable across massive volumes. Reef tanks, by contrast, are small closed systems with very different inputs and biological needs. That argument makes sense, but I still think there's value in aiming for some kind of balance in any tank - even if that balance isn’t Redfield specifically.

That’s why I was surprised when someone as respected as BeanAnimal responded to my assertion about finding a balance by questioning whether there is any such thing or value to it. I get the perspective, and I don’t doubt their knowledge or contributions. But to dismiss the idea of aiming for any nutrient balance at all seems… off. Not because there’s one perfect ratio for every system, but because imbalanced systems often teeter on instability before shifting to a new equilibrium - often one you don’t want.

So I’ve come to think of the ratio more as a diagnostic flag than a target to chase. If nitrate is climbing and phosphate flatlines, or vice versa, it might mean something’s off with uptake or export. But that doesn’t mean the system is doomed - just that it’s worth looking into. The goal, as I understand it, is keeping both nutrients detectable and reasonably stable. Zeroing either out is a fast track to stress, bacterial imbalances, and crashing your microfauna.

 

[siege]

Once again, lights on only for photography. They're staying off until Sunday or so. Tank went cloudy overnight, much as expected.

Since it was up to 75ºF, I went ahead and moved the live rock I snagged last weekend, moved over the second heater, and attached my Jebao DMP10. The last is a little louder than I'd like, but c'est la vie. Since I've got coraline algae to support on said rock, I'll bring the lights on VERY low, for just 4 hours a day, starting... actually probably Monday, as the rock will have been in full darkness for 5 days, and only ambient room light for 3 more.

I'm a dummy and let my Apex probes get submerged. Salinity went from reading 1.2 or whatever, to 30.3, and ORP dropped to zero - I think they're shot

On the plus side, the Salifert pH test seems to agree with the Apex, so at least that one is okay...

Oh, and in addition to some other little snail-like guys, I found a stomatella! Thanks again @shanepike !

 

[project1004]

Your apex’s probes are meant to be submerged if wanted and your salinity probe should be reading 33-35ish I believe. ORP is used to measure DOC in the water column.

 

[siege]

Well, from what I understand the tips only are meant to be submerged, not the entire probe.

ORP had been reading fine, I was watching it drop from ~300 in response to the liverock I'd added, it hung at about 100 for a while... and then after I let the whole thing go underwater, it dropped to 0.

Salt... was always weird, reading either 1.1 or 1.2... though I guess, now that I think about it, it's measuring in PPT not SG? So maybe it's actually fine, and started reading right because I cleaned it up a bit? I have some calibration fluid coming, I'll try it when it comes in.

 

[project1004]

Dang…. Learn something new. Guess I should have read the manual. My probes are 100% down under -.-; I’ll put them in the proper place with upgrade!

 

[siege]

I gotta say... I know they're only 54w, which is on the low side for a tank this size, and only a PAR reading will tell the tale, but I'm pretty happy with these lights. Could be mounted a little higher for better color mixing I guess, but as it stands I have basically zero light spillage and am loving the contrast.

 

[project1004]

Wow, So I’ve pulled out my probes out of water few hours ago and my pH has dropped by 0.2 and temperature as well it seems. Better now than later. Thx