- Messages
- 365
- Reaction score
- 0
Good stuff, yet again Brandon.
Sick Blue Tang
- Thread starter vettesarebest
- Start date
- Messages
- 365
- Reaction score
- 0
Well that's a first. I went ahead and tried to give you rep points and an error message came up saying that I need to spread the rep points before I can you some more.
I understand the concept of people boosting each other's rep really quickly, so the need for restraint, but you seriously deserve them.
So this one will have to be in spirit. Sorry dude.
I understand the concept of people boosting each other's rep really quickly, so the need for restraint, but you seriously deserve them.
So this one will have to be in spirit. Sorry dude.
Straight out of Noga...
" Evidence exists that suggests recovered fish are 'more' resistant to reinfection (Colorni, 1985)
At 25C theronts remain infective for only 24hrs after excystment, but the long time for emergence of some theronts requires the aquaria be left without fish for atleast 3 months to be rid of the parasite. Tomonts have been observed to survive and release theronts as long as 72 days after leaving the fish"
" Evidence exists that suggests recovered fish are 'more' resistant to reinfection (Colorni, 1985)
At 25C theronts remain infective for only 24hrs after excystment, but the long time for emergence of some theronts requires the aquaria be left without fish for atleast 3 months to be rid of the parasite. Tomonts have been observed to survive and release theronts as long as 72 days after leaving the fish"
- Messages
- 2,722
- Reaction score
- 0
Yes, and you got that out of Noga's book http://www.amazon.com/Fish-Disease-Diagnosis-Edward-Noga/dp/081382558X/ref=si3_rdr_bb_product/002-0230533-0750438"><span style="color: #000000;">[B]Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment[/B]</span></a> on page 95-96. And Noga is right, to completely be sure that the parasite is removed, a three month fallow period is required. If you want to deal in absolutes, that is the rule to follow. I believe that if you talk to any expert on real world treatments. 90% will tell you that a 45 day fallow period is enough in 99% of the situations.
Colorni is a great man with wonderful research on the subject. If you read the works of Colorni, naimly the work you site in 1985 and furthermore in 1997 and 2000, he advocates that treatment performed at hyposalinity, in a barebottom tank with daily water changes are the safest method of treatment. At any rate, Given his research has shown that fish might be able to develop natural immunity. But I believe Steven Pro said it best
[I]"This limited immunity is also the basis for some aquarists advocating that if a fish gets sick, to just maintain pristine water quality, feed a superb diet, and to allow the fish's own immune system to do the job. While it is possible that this could work, natural immunity is not totally foolproof. In the studies cited above, some of the fish were not completely protected by their own natural immunity. It is possible that immunity could protect the fish from massive infestation, but still allow small numbers of parasites to remain and reproduce undetected by the aquarist. This is where the 'Ich is always present' argument comes into play and why sometimes an aquarist has recurring difficulties with this pathogen. It is possible, in some cases, that the treatment was cut short or misapplied or for some other reason not totally effective, but that immunity helped to partially ward off the infection. In this situation, a low-level infestation, held in check by natural immunity but not totally eradicated, could continue to survive but be misdiagnosed, or missed all together, by the hobbyist. The parasites could progress through their lifecycle by predominately attacking the gill tissue, where they could go unseen. Or, the number of parasites could be so low and their appearance (and disappearance) be erratic enough that the aquarist does not pick up on the infection or attributes the occasional white spot to a speck of sand or air bubble because the fish are behaving normally otherwise. That is until some other minor mishap occurs or the immunity wears off and the balance shifts in favor of the infestation, resulting in a full-blown infestation once again." </em>
Now I am not trying to down play the great things Colorni has written. I think everyone should read Colorni, Angelo. 1985 "Aspects of the Biology of [I]Cryptocaryon irritans</em>, and Hyposalinity as a Control Measure in Cultured Gilt-Head Sea Bream [I]Sparus aurata</em>" [I]Diseases of Aquatic Organisms, </em>
[I]Colorni, Angelo. 1987. "Biology of Cryptocaryon irritans and Strategies for its Control" Aquaculture, and Colorni, Angelo & Peter Burgess. 1997. "Cryptocaryon irritans Brown 1951, the cause of 'white spot disease' in marine fish: an update" Aquarium Sciences and Conservation.</em> They are great reading to put you to sleep by. Most "experts" can not agree that Ich is a monotypic genus. Research points to different types of Ich from different parts of the world. If this is true, what might work for one species of Ich, might not work for another. Mixing fish from different parts of the world might trump any immunity that is natural to the fish. Heck, if that is the case, then you poor tank raised clowns do not stand a chance since they would develo no natural immunity to any type of Ich that they have never seen before. It also should be noted that no one had been able to prove that a natural immunity exist nor how long it would take to develop. But I leave that debate up to the "experts" and regress to say that a QT tank is the only way to treat Ich.
The Cliff's Notes version is this: Treatment in a display tank is largely a loosing battle and you are limited to your treatment options from within the display tank. You are also limited in your reaction time if a problem were to arise.
It is getting late and I am sure I have spewed from the brain into a puddle that only I can understand.
Bryan, I wish you the best with your outbreak. I know this is not your first bout with this parasite. I hope whatever treatment you choose is effective in eliminating the parasite for good this time.
P.S> MAveri, You own me that Rep point... I am going to hold you to it! ;)
Colorni is a great man with wonderful research on the subject. If you read the works of Colorni, naimly the work you site in 1985 and furthermore in 1997 and 2000, he advocates that treatment performed at hyposalinity, in a barebottom tank with daily water changes are the safest method of treatment. At any rate, Given his research has shown that fish might be able to develop natural immunity. But I believe Steven Pro said it best
[I]"This limited immunity is also the basis for some aquarists advocating that if a fish gets sick, to just maintain pristine water quality, feed a superb diet, and to allow the fish's own immune system to do the job. While it is possible that this could work, natural immunity is not totally foolproof. In the studies cited above, some of the fish were not completely protected by their own natural immunity. It is possible that immunity could protect the fish from massive infestation, but still allow small numbers of parasites to remain and reproduce undetected by the aquarist. This is where the 'Ich is always present' argument comes into play and why sometimes an aquarist has recurring difficulties with this pathogen. It is possible, in some cases, that the treatment was cut short or misapplied or for some other reason not totally effective, but that immunity helped to partially ward off the infection. In this situation, a low-level infestation, held in check by natural immunity but not totally eradicated, could continue to survive but be misdiagnosed, or missed all together, by the hobbyist. The parasites could progress through their lifecycle by predominately attacking the gill tissue, where they could go unseen. Or, the number of parasites could be so low and their appearance (and disappearance) be erratic enough that the aquarist does not pick up on the infection or attributes the occasional white spot to a speck of sand or air bubble because the fish are behaving normally otherwise. That is until some other minor mishap occurs or the immunity wears off and the balance shifts in favor of the infestation, resulting in a full-blown infestation once again." </em>
Now I am not trying to down play the great things Colorni has written. I think everyone should read Colorni, Angelo. 1985 "Aspects of the Biology of [I]Cryptocaryon irritans</em>, and Hyposalinity as a Control Measure in Cultured Gilt-Head Sea Bream [I]Sparus aurata</em>" [I]Diseases of Aquatic Organisms, </em>
[I]Colorni, Angelo. 1987. "Biology of Cryptocaryon irritans and Strategies for its Control" Aquaculture, and Colorni, Angelo & Peter Burgess. 1997. "Cryptocaryon irritans Brown 1951, the cause of 'white spot disease' in marine fish: an update" Aquarium Sciences and Conservation.</em> They are great reading to put you to sleep by. Most "experts" can not agree that Ich is a monotypic genus. Research points to different types of Ich from different parts of the world. If this is true, what might work for one species of Ich, might not work for another. Mixing fish from different parts of the world might trump any immunity that is natural to the fish. Heck, if that is the case, then you poor tank raised clowns do not stand a chance since they would develo no natural immunity to any type of Ich that they have never seen before. It also should be noted that no one had been able to prove that a natural immunity exist nor how long it would take to develop. But I leave that debate up to the "experts" and regress to say that a QT tank is the only way to treat Ich.
The Cliff's Notes version is this: Treatment in a display tank is largely a loosing battle and you are limited to your treatment options from within the display tank. You are also limited in your reaction time if a problem were to arise.
It is getting late and I am sure I have spewed from the brain into a puddle that only I can understand.
Bryan, I wish you the best with your outbreak. I know this is not your first bout with this parasite. I hope whatever treatment you choose is effective in eliminating the parasite for good this time.
P.S> MAveri, You own me that Rep point... I am going to hold you to it! ;)
I just got a blue tang so Im trying to get prepared. I was told to get Seachem Metronidazole. You mix it in with the food when the fish first starts to show signs of ick, within 3-4 days it should be gone and it doesnt have negative effects on the tank. I just ordered some to have just incase, I also agree that the fish can fight it off on its own though. My experience has been the fish either fighting it off or I add medication and the fix dies. Ive never had a fish survive after adding medication.
Never heard of metro being used for Hex. Prolonged immersion in Copper is the only chemical treatment that is effective. To avoid trouble, make sure you have a large enough tank first, Keep the water quality high, feed them good food and if you can QT them for 3-4weeks, do it.
- Messages
- 2,722
- Reaction score
- 0
I believe that moving is fish is not more stressful on it then for it to try to fight of a parasite on its own. I am not a fish, I can not be sure. What I can be sure of is, if you prepare a FW dip correctly and if you set up a QT tank correctly, this fish should really know no difference. Heck, according to most experts, utilizing methylene blue in your dip water makes the process even less stressful.
Well there is what SHOULD be done and what some people in the hobby will do. Yes they can be two different things. I will even go as far as to say some people in the hobby are lazy. The want to stick the fish in and do as little as they can/need to to keep the fish alive. It is the difference between letting the animals in our care survive or thrive. Maybe all that time waiting and stress of you trying to catch all your fish and trouble of setting up the QT tank and waterchanges within the QT tank, etc... serves a purpose. May it it teaches you that Ich is something that you do not want in your tank and maybe a QT tank should be part of your normal routine for every fish you bring home. Maybe all the failed "treatments" that are quick and easy, like Kick Ich, will remind you that you just wasted money or a pepper based product that was proven not to work. Maybe the month wait (3 months in your case) will remind you that this hobby requires alot of careful care and things can not be rushed. Or maybe you just say screw it and flush all your fish and sell yout tank on the forums. Me, during that time, I learned that the corals and critters in the tank were just as facinating to look at as the fish themselves.
You are braver then I am... And I am not even going to get into the debate of wether Ich is always in our systems. I believe that it can remain unseen for quite some time but with proper treatment, would not always be present in a system.
I guess I just look at it this way. I know this is not Bryan's first bout with Ich on his blue tang. I know he likes to use products that might make the Ich subside for the meantime. (Green-ex works, just not as well as other treatments) What I am saying is, he will always have problems if a proper treatment is not carried out.
I will also say that you are correct, a fish who is stressed, ie. due to poor water quality, can develop Ich. I will even go as far as to say that if you can keep the fish calm (Tangs are not the best at keeping calm), you can reduce the stress and boot the parasite for the time being. But you are always going to have the chance for an outbreak around every corner. Get rid of it the proper way and you do not have to worry about it again.
- Messages
- 4,441
- Reaction score
- 1,330
You guys all have great points 
. Suasati does have one point that I do agree with that needs further consideration.
Removing the fish to treat its ich won't do anything to prevent it from getting ich when its back in the display. It will simply get ich again. Your other fish in the display may not be showing obvious white spots but undoubtedly they have ich as well, if only in their gills... which is the only place many fish get ich. Many fish can tolerate a certain amount of these parasites and show no outward signs. In a more general outlook on parasitsm, we know that the eventual evolutionary goal of any "good" parasite is to be at equilibrium with the host. Killing the host is detrimental to the parasite as it removes a possible food source, in essence they simply want a free meal and to be able to come back to the host and get more free meals. Often a fatality due to parasitism is due to the parasite being introduced to something other than its "normal" host and that host being overly susceptible to the parasite. This is the case with many parasites out there now, and I believe the same principles apply to ich. As such, some fish are just more prone to deadly outbreaks of ich than others, like your blue tang... Many of the other fish in your display can just live with ich and apparently seem uninfected when they undoubtedly are.
The simple point that bears repeating is, if you don't focus on the other fish in your display tank... your tang is probably doomed to get ich again once its reintroduced.
Best of luck!
. Suasati does have one point that I do agree with that needs further consideration.Removing the fish to treat its ich won't do anything to prevent it from getting ich when its back in the display. It will simply get ich again. Your other fish in the display may not be showing obvious white spots but undoubtedly they have ich as well, if only in their gills... which is the only place many fish get ich. Many fish can tolerate a certain amount of these parasites and show no outward signs. In a more general outlook on parasitsm, we know that the eventual evolutionary goal of any "good" parasite is to be at equilibrium with the host. Killing the host is detrimental to the parasite as it removes a possible food source, in essence they simply want a free meal and to be able to come back to the host and get more free meals. Often a fatality due to parasitism is due to the parasite being introduced to something other than its "normal" host and that host being overly susceptible to the parasite. This is the case with many parasites out there now, and I believe the same principles apply to ich. As such, some fish are just more prone to deadly outbreaks of ich than others, like your blue tang... Many of the other fish in your display can just live with ich and apparently seem uninfected when they undoubtedly are.
The simple point that bears repeating is, if you don't focus on the other fish in your display tank... your tang is probably doomed to get ich again once its reintroduced.
Best of luck!
- Messages
- 161
- Reaction score
- 0
FutureInterest is right - ich is ever-present in the water (unless no hosts have come in contact with the environment for a significant amount of time), and whether a fish contracts the parasite and/or shows symptoms of being infected depends on its immune system. It's like catching a cold for us; the virus is all around our environments, but only when something makes us more vulnerable (ie stress, lack of sleep, etc.) do we "catch" the bug.
Bryan, in my experience, I have not removed fish with ich for treatment, but rather altered their environment to help them fight the parasite. I have yet to lose a fish to ich as well. Some people say raising the temperature to 80+ degrees F (no higher than 82) helps, while others think an upped pH does the trick. Regardless, copper in a QT tank is the only way to guarantee death of the parasite, and when the tang is reintroduced, the risk of contracting the parasite again is high, especially after being moved around a lot.
Just my two cents.
Bryan, in my experience, I have not removed fish with ich for treatment, but rather altered their environment to help them fight the parasite. I have yet to lose a fish to ich as well. Some people say raising the temperature to 80+ degrees F (no higher than 82) helps, while others think an upped pH does the trick. Regardless, copper in a QT tank is the only way to guarantee death of the parasite, and when the tang is reintroduced, the risk of contracting the parasite again is high, especially after being moved around a lot.
Just my two cents.
Brandon,
Everyone has their own believes and personal preferences, debating which doesn't make much sense. Because in the end what matters is what you do to solve the problem, I strongly believe the easier you keep it on yourself the better success you will have. Pick your poison and swallow it in full. Ofcourse a better tasting one will make it easier on you to finish.
I think we have laid out all the options here, even though we may disagree on which ones are more effective. Nevertheless, the decision here is marrons15 to make, Move all the fish to QT and go through a full cleansing of the display tank while treating the fish in hospital tank, or, Just try and improve his husbandary and keep the water quality better than what it is now. If you come back and tell me he has his tang in a 30gal, then I would strongly advice to give that fish away.
He needs to make a decision based on which would be less stressful for him, cause frankly, if you ask the fish, it probably would say, "Take me back to my home, You Jerk!!!", atleast mine does, everytime I give him a piece of nori in the morning, Ofcourse he is purple and not blue, though.
Kayla,
I think your advice is worth more than just 2 cents.
Everyone has their own believes and personal preferences, debating which doesn't make much sense. Because in the end what matters is what you do to solve the problem, I strongly believe the easier you keep it on yourself the better success you will have. Pick your poison and swallow it in full. Ofcourse a better tasting one will make it easier on you to finish.
I think we have laid out all the options here, even though we may disagree on which ones are more effective. Nevertheless, the decision here is marrons15 to make, Move all the fish to QT and go through a full cleansing of the display tank while treating the fish in hospital tank, or, Just try and improve his husbandary and keep the water quality better than what it is now. If you come back and tell me he has his tang in a 30gal, then I would strongly advice to give that fish away.
He needs to make a decision based on which would be less stressful for him, cause frankly, if you ask the fish, it probably would say, "Take me back to my home, You Jerk!!!", atleast mine does, everytime I give him a piece of nori in the morning, Ofcourse he is purple and not blue, though.
Kayla,
I think your advice is worth more than just 2 cents.
- Messages
- 2,722
- Reaction score
- 0
Agreed... But a little debate is fun from time to time!
But a little debate is fun from time to time!- Messages
- 1,524
- Reaction score
- 0
So i am getting mixed feeling on this because of all of the opinions. I think I will just leave her in there a couple more days and see what happens. Kayla, I have never lost a fish to Ich eaither she is the only fish that I have ever had that has gotten it.
- Messages
- 3,379
- Reaction score
- 4
Well, I've been watching for a while, time to get into it too!
Personally, I don't think you can keep your tank ick free, unless you dont add anything to your tank. I'm not talking fish, but instead, anything from another tank. Ick tomonts are really quite resilient, and can travel on a number of items, so long as they are "wet". That includes that coral, frag, snail, live rock, macroalgae, etc etc etc. Really, unless you are truly yltra cautious (read paranoid), and quarantine EVERYTHING for three months before it goes in the display, you've got an open door for ick. Sure, fish are a bigger risk, but don't ignore those other vectors.
So, how do we deal with this? Well, I side a bit with suAsati, let's allow the fishes immune system to do some work, and we'll do our part, too. Make sure, you are doing what you can to keep the fish in a good environment. We can eliminate the things we know causes stress in fish, in hopes of minimizing susceptibility to ick. But, this also begs the question, what stresses a fish? Honestly, we dont have a clue. Yeah, we know that things like abnormal temp, pH, salinity, ammonia, etc, will cause stress, but what else? Will movement, other fish, food selection, light color, heck, anything at all cause stress? Maybe or maybe not. And maybe or maybe not for certain fish species, or individuals. Like I said, we dont have a clue. So how can we determine stress? Watch your fish. I agree with XYZ to the point that tank stability and properness may not necessarily be a cure either. Some fish become infested, and without treatment, they are surely doomed.
I have a chevron tang in my tank that I've had for 3 years, and from day 1, he has had spots here and there. Sometimes worse than others, sometimes not at all visible. Usually he shows some spots when he gets a beating from my yellow tang or trigger. But they subside, and I may not see them again for months to years. Is he constantly infected? Possibly. Is it life threatening? I say no- he is just as fat and chunky as evey other fish in my tank, and has doubled in size in the past 3 years (going from a beautiful juvenile to a more subdued adult coloration). I have never once treated him. However, if I saw behavior that indicated to me that it was a severe problem (heavy scratching, labored breathing, heavy cysts), you bet I would pull him and treat him.
Personally, I don't think you can keep your tank ick free, unless you dont add anything to your tank. I'm not talking fish, but instead, anything from another tank. Ick tomonts are really quite resilient, and can travel on a number of items, so long as they are "wet". That includes that coral, frag, snail, live rock, macroalgae, etc etc etc. Really, unless you are truly yltra cautious (read paranoid), and quarantine EVERYTHING for three months before it goes in the display, you've got an open door for ick. Sure, fish are a bigger risk, but don't ignore those other vectors.
So, how do we deal with this? Well, I side a bit with suAsati, let's allow the fishes immune system to do some work, and we'll do our part, too. Make sure, you are doing what you can to keep the fish in a good environment. We can eliminate the things we know causes stress in fish, in hopes of minimizing susceptibility to ick. But, this also begs the question, what stresses a fish? Honestly, we dont have a clue. Yeah, we know that things like abnormal temp, pH, salinity, ammonia, etc, will cause stress, but what else? Will movement, other fish, food selection, light color, heck, anything at all cause stress? Maybe or maybe not. And maybe or maybe not for certain fish species, or individuals. Like I said, we dont have a clue. So how can we determine stress? Watch your fish. I agree with XYZ to the point that tank stability and properness may not necessarily be a cure either. Some fish become infested, and without treatment, they are surely doomed.
I have a chevron tang in my tank that I've had for 3 years, and from day 1, he has had spots here and there. Sometimes worse than others, sometimes not at all visible. Usually he shows some spots when he gets a beating from my yellow tang or trigger. But they subside, and I may not see them again for months to years. Is he constantly infected? Possibly. Is it life threatening? I say no- he is just as fat and chunky as evey other fish in my tank, and has doubled in size in the past 3 years (going from a beautiful juvenile to a more subdued adult coloration). I have never once treated him. However, if I saw behavior that indicated to me that it was a severe problem (heavy scratching, labored breathing, heavy cysts), you bet I would pull him and treat him.
- Messages
- 1,524
- Reaction score
- 0
Well again thank you everyone for the help! Today after getting home from school she looks MUCH better and doesn't really have any spots anymore.
- Messages
- 2,722
- Reaction score
- 0
Jmaney,
I was wondering where you were on this topic.. You are perfectly correct. Ich can travel from anywhere. I believe I have gotten it from inverts that I did not think to QT, Corals from ARC members, and other sources. Little did I think that your could transmit it from anything else besides fish. So what do I do now... We I have made up my mind that I will QT everything that I can QT BEFORE it hits my main tank. I will also dip corals BEFORE they hit my display tank. I will dip Macroalgae BEFORE it his my fuge. I will put live sand from another tank through a QT cycle BEFORE it goes in my system.
Is this a pain in the butt?!? You bet! Is it paranoia?!? You bet! But I hope I never have to deal with Ich (or some other nasty tings) again. Will my QT last 3 months that SOME believe that it needs to?!? No, I will QT for about 45 days and watch for any signs of illness. On the plus side, I will spend less on dead livestock, treatments that may or may not work as they claim, and the headach of having to deal with Ich on a fairly regular basis. Another plus here is with all the QT period, it really make me not tempted to impulse buy anything unless I know that I am willing to put the time into it.
Different strokes for different folks. No one has been able to prove if Ich is always present within a tank and I doubt any one ever will. But I will do my best to ensure that it is not in my tank and the fish I trade to other ARC members have not come from a system that might harm theirs.
[/end hijack] I am done with this topic for now.
I was wondering where you were on this topic..
You are perfectly correct. Ich can travel from anywhere. I believe I have gotten it from inverts that I did not think to QT, Corals from ARC members, and other sources. Little did I think that your could transmit it from anything else besides fish. So what do I do now... We I have made up my mind that I will QT everything that I can QT BEFORE it hits my main tank. I will also dip corals BEFORE they hit my display tank. I will dip Macroalgae BEFORE it his my fuge. I will put live sand from another tank through a QT cycle BEFORE it goes in my system. Is this a pain in the butt?!? You bet! Is it paranoia?!? You bet! But I hope I never have to deal with Ich (or some other nasty tings) again. Will my QT last 3 months that SOME believe that it needs to?!? No, I will QT for about 45 days and watch for any signs of illness. On the plus side, I will spend less on dead livestock, treatments that may or may not work as they claim, and the headach of having to deal with Ich on a fairly regular basis. Another plus here is with all the QT period, it really make me not tempted to impulse buy anything unless I know that I am willing to put the time into it.
Different strokes for different folks. No one has been able to prove if Ich is always present within a tank and I doubt any one ever will. But I will do my best to ensure that it is not in my tank and the fish I trade to other ARC members have not come from a system that might harm theirs.
[/end hijack] I am done with this topic for now.
- Messages
- 161
- Reaction score
- 0
Well said, Brandon - and many others.
That's great to hear, but do continue to keep an eye on her, as ich has different life cycles (the parasite drops off the fish during the reproduction phase, I think?), so it may come back with a vengeance - I'm not saying this to scare you, but rather to give you a heads up.
- Messages
- 3,379
- Reaction score
- 4
Yeah, Brandon, I hope I didn't infer that paranoia is bad, because that's how I live my life. You dont want to know how many times in the night I spring from my bed, and race to the tank, because I thought I heard a wierd noise!
Bryan, Kayla is right, dont take an absence of visible infection to be absolute. The life cycle of this parasite often show this "false hope".
Bryan, Kayla is right, dont take an absence of visible infection to be absolute. The life cycle of this parasite often show this "false hope".
- Messages
- 1,524
- Reaction score
- 0
Alright, I will definatly keep an eye on her and as well keep feeding with garlic and making sure I have an ideal environment for her. I now will always have a hospital tank at the ready and everyone has convinced me to quarentine everything that goes into my tank. Thank you guys so much for the help! Kayla, You didn't scare me, thank you for the heads up! Also thanks for the comment on my picture!
Similar threads
