Sump intimidation! Natural vs Mechanical?

[irahmatulla]

Where to begin. I was going to spend a few dollars (like anything reef related cost's few) to upgrade from my 40 gallon to my 90 gallon. I am growing quickly (patiently) and want to increase my space available. Have not had one casualty (outside of a goby eating himself out of house and home) using heavy biological filtration. I have had two reef tanks in my life and both have had minimal mechanical filtration. No sterilizers, reactors, chillers, skimmers, nothing! Just old fashioned hang on back filters and power heads. This was what I was going to do with my 90. Found a 60 gallon cube pre-drilled with an in tank overflow. The price is ridiculously low and I can never have too many tanks. So, I am picking it up tomorrow. A large part of me wants to plug the tube with my return pump and use the overflow as an in tank refugium, however this may be much more complicated than I believe. I have spare tanks to make a sump/refugium, which would increase my biological filtration greatly. However I never hear of anyone not using a skimmer in a sump. Can I just take a tank with a DSB and a bunch of Cheato + Rubble and and house all my equipment so the DT is as open as possible? Has anyone had success with little equipment? What would cause a natural tank like that to crash aside from a swing in pH or contaminants from the air? (of course one fatality starts a downward spiral) I guess what I am saying is that, machines fail. Power outages, leaks, ect. However nature does, in sense, what nature does. Right?:unsure:

 

[jennm]

In general, in-sump skimmers are much more effective and efficient than hang-on devices.

A sump also gives you more water volume. More volume = more forgiveness.

Having a sump doesn't mean you have to have all kinds of gadgets on/in it.

I'd suggest using a sump, place a good skimmer in there, your heater, perhaps a filter sock for mechanical, and you can also put a bag of carbon in there (if you want to get fancy you could use a media reactor too, but it's certainly not necessary).

Our 65 display in the shop has a sump with skimmer and a media reactor for carbon/Phosguard. The reactor is a, "newer" addition, previously we just had a bag of carbon and bag of Phosguard in there.

If you want to make your sump into a refugium, you certainly can, but I'd still suggest a skimmer. If you keep macroalgae (ie Chaetomorpha), you will need to light the sump too.

A properly done reef-ready (factory drilled) tank and sump have no more risk of "crash" than a tank with HOB equipment. In fact, the extra water volume that a sump affords, may make the risk a bit less.

Jenn

 

[frantz]

I share you feeling for non mechanical reliance, however, if nothing else don't have the volume of the ocean and the mechanical processes help us to make up for that difference, so like Jenn said, a sump is more volume. If you make the sump nothing more than a refugium with reverse photo periods you should be able to accomplish your goals far better than using just the overflow box. You can move your filters down to the sump as well for a cleaner look (unless you are counting on them for additional water movement). Even if you build a natural power outage resistant tank you'd have a great benefit to having a skimmer for those rare moments when the power is working, for your thinking, just don't come to rely on it and keep bio loads low. Congrats on the cheap tank upgrade though and have fun!

 

[irahmatulla]

Ok I have thought long and hard about it. I do want to use a sump just because I have never done such a thing. I know that the higher volume gives me "move forgiveness." However, in my months upon months of nerve racking research, I have read that protein skimmers take a lot out of tanks. If I am going to be dosing with phyto and pods to feed coral and some fish, wouldn't a protein skimmer take a lot of that goodness out? I am not planning on relying on it to keep my bio load down, but I am worried that a mechanism such as that would take away from my biological filtration. Once baby bods and worms release from the walls into the column they will end their cycle much faster. Lastly I have two more questions. As I said I have never dealt with a sump so, I know I need a high volume of gallons per hour churning the water in my tank (yes the filters have helped with this in the past) do I need a high volume return pump, or is a lower GPH ratio better not to churn my sump? I.E. less micro bubbles and more time to get the natural wellness out of a refugium? Also, I have never had to upgrade/change tanks (except for when my ex intentionally crashed my system and I had to Duece Biggalo some stuff) Should I move most of my live rock and coral into a bare tank with tank water while I X-fer my sand and let it settle/cycle? If so how long should I let the sand and a bit of live rock cycle? I do not want to rush anything. The current tank has been set up about 6 months, and I know I am not supposed to disturb the sand bed too much. Any suggestions for that?

 

[jennm]

If you're doing a refugium, you want slower flow through the sump. If not, *we* do 8-10 times turnover if the overflows will accommodate it (depending on tank size). That used to be the standard. I see more and more people here recommending slower flow through the sump, even in the absence of a refugium, possibly to allow more dwell time of the water through other peripherals - skimmer/chiller/UV/reactor etc., which also makes sense to me.

It's also said to count on other means of water movement (ie powerheads) to make the turnover, not just the sump, or not even including the sump. I think there's room for play in that equation.

You *can* run skimmerless if you wish. I don't recommend it. We encourage the use of a quality protein skimmer, properly sized/rated for the tank. If you're concerned about removing nutrients prematurely, set it on a timer or turn it off while you feed. I personally don't do that but you can. I don't shut off pumps etc., during feeding because with my forgetfulness, I'd likely forget to turn them back on, and that wouldn't end well. Some folks do. And some have settings on controller devices to turn equipment off for a brief interval for feeding, and it automatically re-starts the devices after the interval has passed.

As for sand - we never re-use it. I suppose you can if you move it quickly so the beneficial bacteria doesn't die off in the process. If you're moving rock/sand quickly (ie within a couple or three hours) you probably won't see a "cycle" as you're simply moving cured biological media from one vessel to another. When we move tanks for people, we take them down and set them right back up again and seldom have any issues except the occasional fish that doesn't react to the stress very well, but even that is a rare occurrence (knock on wood).

As for not disturbing sand - unless it's a DSB (deep sand bed), I recommend vacuuming the sand regularly to remove detritus. You will not lose pods this way (ever try catching a pod with a suction hose or a turkey baster? Good luck with that...). We maintain a 3/4" to 1" depth of sand, and vacuum it regularly.

A deep sand bed is a different animal altogether (I'm not a fan of the DSB)... and no it shouldn't be vacuumed. If you disturb it there's a risk of stirring up partially decomposed matter and releasing hydrogen sulfide - peewww you'll know if that happens. Rotten egg smell.

A problem with sand of any depth is that if there aren't enough creatures to gently turn it or if it's not vacuumed (in the case of shallow sand) it can clump up and become like concrete.

There are different ways to do certain things, and what I've described is how *I* do it and recommend. I'm sure there will be differing opinions on how things should be done - that's what I've done for the past 25+ years and it works for me, and for the tanks we maintain. I am not suggesting that another method won't work or is any worse/better - that's just my 2 cents on it.

Jenn

 

[irahmatulla]

Thanks Jenn! I have considered a few things, and with finances in mind, I may run sumpless for a short amount of time, and when I can afford a properly rated Skimmer I will upgrade to my sump. I can always get a cap for my bulkhead/flange right? and then drain below the overflow and unscrew cap and plumb from there without disturbing the DT. When it comes to my personal application, I do use a DSB, 2 inches is about the shallowest and in some locations (depending on flow and my Nass's) I have 4 nassarius and I did have a Dragon Sleeper for sifting.(also have a immigrant engineer goby) I think if anything I may just gently scoop the sand over with as little agitation as possible and then slowly fill via the overflow untill I can start scaping, and then fill over the rock which will take as much aggitation away from the sand as possible. When it comes to skimmerless vs skimmer(ful) I just feel that a constant running skimmer could cause the water to become.....too clean.(?) However the suggestion of a periodic skimming period does sound much better. I have one powerhead that is over rated for my current tank and will do swimmingly for the upgrade, and another one that has nearly run its lifespan. Major power decrease and I do not believe I can take it apart to clean all the moving parts. I planned on using that to be my return pump, it is probably running about 20GPH or so (rough estimation) so it would strictly be for moving water, not so much flow for coral and such.

 

[jennm]

Yes you can run it without a sump for a while. I'd suggest not filling it to the level of the overflow teeth and use HOB (I've seen that done). You might want to cap the holes in case of splash into the overflow, lest it leak into the stand by mistake. You'd probably have to replace the bulkhead fittings when the time came to plumb a sump to it but that's a relatively small expense.

Unless you're keeping lagoon-dwelling corals that appreciate a bit extra nutrient in the water, you shouldn't have to worry about it being too clean.

Jenn

 

[irahmatulla]

Ok, revamping this thread. Instead of a 90 (still in the closet) I purchased a used 60g cube. For the sake of mention, it was custom made by the UGA Marine studies here in Savannah. I have a 29 (ish) gallon tank that is the same length and plenty deep for flooding precautions. I have read a lot about this and would like some feed back. Some people suggest high flow rates through a sump. Some low. I can see the benefit for both, but if I am not dependent upon my return line for "ocean motion", lower than "suggested" flow would be acceptable right? More time for natural de-nitrification, and extra time with the "skimmer". I say "skimmer" because I have seen a lot here about "skimmer bodies" and through a little research, and a lot of DIY interest. I have decided to build my own. Ultimately, an overflow is only going to fill to the return pump's gph specs right? I guess my biggest question is about the skimmer and baffles. I know I need a fuge, probably the largest partition. With a prefilter. I have a round, mesh(y) thing that came with it, but probably another prefilter that water will drain into the fuge from. Then the skimmer partition. The skimmer will flow back into this area, and overflow into the bubble trap (not sure if right term is being used) and then to the return area? Or should there be another small partition that the skimmer flows into that the water can let bubbles rise before ultimately getting to the return pump? I have seen so many different setups, I am not 100% which one to make my own. They say if you can dream it, it can be done. Just want to make sure I am on the right track.:unsure:

 

[hammcd]

if you have a 29 gallon tank id use the aquaticlife 115 skimmer..its only $49 ..i use it woth my 29 galon tank...its good to do your research but i think youre way overthinking the skimer thing...adding a skimmer is the single best thing i did for my tank...the only time i might consider not running a skimmer is if you had an all in one system 20 gallons or smaller with a media basket and religious weekly water changes...ive got tons of pods in my tank and the skimmer doesnt kill them etc...skimmer will only help ya...and not to talk you out of building one yourself but the aquaticlife one has a warranty and works great

 

[cbj25]

here is a picture of the diy sump/fuge I just finished up on. It is very simple, 3 chambers (sump, return, fuge) the return pump will feed the fuge. All I had to buy was a tank, silicone, and 4 pieces of glass for (3 for bubble trap and 1 for fuge)

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Let me know if you want some better pictures and I will take some when I get home

 

[hammcd]

ah that looks great, sorry i misread and thought u were building a skimmer

 

[ichthyoid]

Another major contribution that skimmers provide, other than nutrient export, is oxygenation and gas exchange (CO2 gets released, in particular).

This is of no small consequence in a reef tank, as we cannot reproduce the wave action that happens around almost all coral reefs.

I personally believe strongly in sumps and/or refugiums, as they increase the system volume and filtration capacity, thus adding stability. As probably mentioned, these areas can also add diversity if predators are not allowed, so pods, plankton, algae, etc. can thrive.

 

[irahmatulla]

@ hamm I am building a skimmer. When it comes to size/shape/ease of access, I will build one, if not just for temporary use. I am a big fan of DIY, and really my LFS has easily a 50-200% markup of certain items. I was more curious, which order to put the compartments in. I do appreciate all the feedback I get from you guys!

 

[eagle9252]

I'm new at this but i would lean the last piece of glass away from the return pump slighty / so the water rides down and not falls down. this falling makes bubbles also you have 2 heaters in the fuge. the water flow is slow and your DT water moves faster so i think it will not heat correctly.

cbj25;697563 wrote: here is a picture of the diy sump/fuge I just finished up on. It is very simple, 3 chambers (sump, return, fuge) the return pump will feed the fuge. All I had to buy was a tank, silicone, and 4 pieces of glass for (3 for bubble trap and 1 for fuge)

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Let me know if you want some better pictures and I will take some when I get home