Sump issue

[sigshane]

Hello all. I finally got all my stuff together, and my sump is up and running - yay!

However...(Isn't there always a 'however'?)

My return pump sucks all the water out of that compartment, pumps it back into the tank, then begins to suck air and water up, resulting in microbubbles in my display tank.

How do I fix that?

Thanks in advance,

Shane

 

[rdnelson]

You need to add more water to the system. But, (Just like however there is always a but) make sure that if you have a power failure it isn't too much to flow back to the sump and overflow it.

 

[wally]

+1


Wally

 

[sigshane]

Cool - yep, after calling my LFS, they concur, and that worked, not all the way clear yet, but I am hopeful that the bubbles will fully clear up after a while.

I also noticed this. The original return pipe, which went from the tank bottom bulkhead to spray into the tank, had a small hole drilled in there, near where the nozzles connected, but I used a different pipe, and there is no hole - could this be contributing to my problem?

Concerning backflow during power failure, would you guys recommend a check valve in the return hose?

Also, I just noticed a very slow (one drop every five to 8 seconds) leak in the fittings leaving my sump. IS there a way to fix that in place, without having to drain my whole system? I have a small cup there now, to catch the drips, but that will soon be impractical.

Shane

 

[rdnelson]

Check valve is not a good idea. Things can get caught in it and cause you to have a flood. The hole is the pipe was a siphon break. It should be just below your water line. That way, in a power outage, when the line starts to siphon water back to your sump, it will let air into it and stop if from siphoning. Take a couple pics of you set up and post them so we can help you figure it out.

 

[90galguy]

I just set up my system and had a super slow leak around the return bulk head at the bottom of my tank. It dripped about once every minute or so. Luckily it was above my sump and after a couple days the salt creep closed it right up.

Not sure about adding a check valve on the drain line, just add some additional water and turn the pump off. Let all the water drain back to the sump until the siphon is broken in the tank. If the water level is below the top of your sump you're good. You can then turn the pump back on and once the water level stabilizes you can mark that as your "maximum" water line.

In the name of "redundancy" I added a 1/4" bulkhead near the top of my sump and attached an overflow drain line just in case. I'm lucky enough to have my basement on the opposite side of the wall from my tank and I can run the line directly to my washing machine drain.

Again.........I'm new to the hobby so get some additional advice first!!

 

[sigshane]

Aaarrghhhh!!! Microbubbles!!!!!

Could this be a symptom of a newly installed sump, and NOT something wrong? Now the pump intake is well below the water level in the sump, and I have my skimmer OFF, but still looks like a blizzard in my display tank!

This is not what I was envisioning when I decided to add a sump...

 

[sigshane]

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Here is what the DT is looking like several hours after getting my water level right (or so I think!) The pump is not sucking air any more, I got that fixed by adding water, so where are the dang bubbles coming from??

*makes frustration face*

 

[rdnelson]

Do you have a bubble trap between the compartment your skimmer is in and the one the pump is in?

 

[sigshane]

Yes, there is a bubble trap there.

The water in the return pump compartment is quite clear - no bubbles at all. That is why I suspect that the air may be coming in between the pump and the tank return. I am still investigating

 

[rdnelson]

Are you sure those are bubbles you are seeing? Hard to tell from the picture but could it be sand? If the pump is fully submerged, I don't see where the air could be coming from.

 

[jennm]

That little hole in the elbow is important. It breaks the siphon in the event of a power failure (or when you turn off the system). Without it, when the pump stops pumping, gravity will start a suction and water will back-siphon down your return and potentially overflow the sump, particularly if your loc-line is pointed downward. Your tank will drain *until* air breaks the siphon. Either use the fitting with the hole, or drill one in your new fitting.

What size of tank is it? Is it a regular reef-ready tank with a 1" drain and 3/4" return? What size pump are you using? (GPH)

It could be that your problem is that you have too much pump and the drain can't handle the volume. Most drains can handle about 600 GPH.

Jenn

 

[sigshane]

Well, I am using a standard reef ready, 65-gallon tank. The permanent overflow does have a 1-inch drain (to the sump) and a 3/4-inch return.

I am using a MAG 7 pump. That pump has a 1/2-inch discharge size, which I had to purchase adapters to fit it to the 3/4-inch ID flexible hose I used for the return line.

The only place I guess that air could be getting in is in the fittings connecting the outer part of the sump bulkhead fitting to the return hose. There is a very slow (about 1/4 cup over a six-hour period) water leak there, maybe one drop every 5 seconds. However, due to the sheer volume of microbubbles in the DT, I don't think that can be the sole source. The return hose is see-through, and I can see no air bubbles in there. The pump compartment now maintains about 4 inches of water too, and that water looks quite bubble-free to me. No air is getting past my bubble trap. I will try to post pictures/drawings of the system when I get back home.

My skimmer is now turned off, mainly because it has not cycled yet, and was constantly filling up with clear water instead of skimmate. I am told that it just takes a break-in period for that to right itself.

I think the bio-load for a 65-gallon tank is very moderate, with the following:

Sailfin Tang x 1
Blue damsel x 3
Green Chromis x 1
Diamond Goby x 1
Six-Line Wrasse x 1
Horseshoe Crab x 1
Nassarius/Cerith/Astraeus snails, probably 45 in all, 5 of the Astraeus.

I need to drill that hole in the return pipe - where do I need to put that in relation to my current overflow water level? I have the Durso pushed all the way down as low as it can go, which keeps the overflow slightly higher than half full.

Where the water enters the sump, there is a constant layer of bubbles there too, although they are not going past the bubble trap just upstream of the pump compartment.

Right now I am just keeping an eye on a little bowl placed to catch the dripping from that leak mentioned before. I secretly fear that I may have to remove the sump to fix that, which means diverting a LOT of water to buckets or water cooler bottles. I do not want to do that until I figure out my microbubble problem though.

Thanks for all who are focused on my issue.

Shane

 

[rdnelson]

The hole you need to drill in the return should be just below the water line. That way, as soon as the tank level drops at all, it lets air into the line and breaks the siphon. When the pump is on and the water level in the tank is at normal levels it will cover this hole but just barely.

 

[sigshane]

Okay, now when you say 'just below the water line', do you mean in the overflow section, or the display tank?

The answer may be obvious, but it leads me to question what the overflow level should be compared to the display area level. My overflow level is probably eight inches below the level of the main part of the tank.

My setup could very well be wrong, and directly causing my microbubble problems!

 

[jennm]

Actually a new overflow kit has the hole in the crook of the 90-degree elbow that connects the upright to the loc-line. The hole goes right were the doctor would take blood out of your arm - right in the inside bend.

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The pump is appropriately sized for the tank - are there bends in the drain? OR is the drain outlet below the water line?

 

[rdnelson]

Look at this website. http://www.melevsreef.com/what_sump.html">http://www.melevsreef.com/what_sump.html</a> It gives a very good representation of how it all works. The difference is that it shows it with a HOB overflow instead of a reef ready set up like you have. But, if you look on the left side of the graphic you will see a small hole drawn in the return piping just below the water line in the tank. When the pump shuts down, water will siphon down the left hand (return) pipe until the water level drops below that hole. The hole then lets air in which breaks the siphon and stops the water from flowing down that pipe back to your sump.

As for the overflow, I don't understand how you have such a big difference in water levels. Post some close up pictures of that for us to look at.

 

[sigshane]

Thanks for the link. One difference between the graphic and my tank is that the return pipe does not physically end below the water line in my DT, it has one of those two-legged jointed black things, and water sprays out of those into the DT. If I was to put another elbow, and make the pipe enter the DT beneath the water line, would that help with the bubbles?

Also, about the different water levels between the overflow and the DT - that Durso standpipe is adjustable - you can raise or lower the upper section, and the overflow water level changes accordingly. I don't really know why I set it to the lowest height, except maybe paranoia, thinking that the less water in the overflow, the less water can wind up on my (wife's) floor!

Edit: I will take many photos and post them after work.

 

[rdnelson]

I think we found the problem. Yes, the jointed black things need to be below the water line. If the water is coming out of them in the open air and falling into the tank you will get the bubbles. Add the other elbow to get them below the water line and then point them where you want to flow to be directed. Have them pointed slightly up will cause the surface of the water to ripple slightly which will help gas exchange. If it is too much and causes splashing you will get the bubbles back. Make sure to drill the hole just below the water line when you do this. That should take care of it.

 

[sigshane]

Really? Alright! I will work on that this evening, and will post results.

Thanks all!

Shane