the nitrate nightmare.

prime locks up the nitrates into a less harmful form that will still show up on tests. but it alleviates some of the stress on your livestock.


there's something we're missing here. there's ALWAYS a reason. seriously though, test your source water. just for the sake of 100% ruling it out.
 
DrNecropolis;389461 wrote: I don't see how a phos reactor would really hurt.. Although I don't know how it would lower nitrate either..


its said that you can pack these with different media. theres a product called nitrate sponge. i gotta get this under control. its crazy.
it cant be this hard.
 
ryanh487;389464 wrote: prime locks up the nitrates into a less harmful form that will still show up on tests. but it alleviates some of the stress on your livestock.


there's something we're missing here. there's ALWAYS a reason. seriously though, test your source water. just for the sake of 100% ruling it out.

i'll do that this weekend ryan. im out as we speak, from last nights WC.
yeah theres gotta be something. do you think ive over extended in my bioload? to many fish?
 
yeah but dawg that was almost a year ago. all new sand has been added since. first month i had it even. new rock has been added but none for 6month im willing to bet. sand and the addition of rock was the very first suggestion my LFS gave me.
 
dawgdude;389469 wrote: If that were the case you would be seeing a full cycle with ammonia and nitrites as well. I would go with an issues of nitrates being released in some way during the tank move.

not necessarily. i've come across plenty of overstocked tanks that just had issues keeping nitrates low. aerobic bacteria is VERY prolific and there is more than enough surface area in a few pounds of live rock to accomodate enough to complete the nitrogen cycle in that tank. and overstocked tank is one where regular water changes aren't enough to keep up with the nitrogen production of the tank, in other words your nitrates raise faster than you can lower them with normal maintenance.
 
ryan and others,

can you suggest a good book thats pretty easy to understand, that might teach me some of the basics im missing?
i dont like the rocket scientist books ive ran into. way over my head.
 
dawgdude;389478 wrote: With the 50% water changes its probable that the culture of bacteria in the tank has been lowered and isnt able to keep up.

ok so how can i add back bacteria, or can i ?
so is everybody clueless as i am at this point?
should i try a sump/refug with macroalgae ?
 
dawg

ive been using the stability. im going to see jenn this weekend. she has a book for me. i'll ask her sunday about this.
 
man you guys have been such great help, thank you. we still need to find the cause though. jenn might be able to help me lower them it sounds.
 
Definitely get with Jenn.
Also see if any members can come by on a weekend or after work to check out the entire system and be more of a first hand help. Cook burgers or something. Nothing like someone outside of the box to come peak in
 
I thought I heard my name :)

Sorry I didn't see this thread sooner...

Here's my thinking - only a theory since we probably don't have all the information.

IF the previous owner of the tank wasn't as fastidious about maintenance, the tank may have had a problem before you got it. Inadequate water changes, overfeeding... the nitrates were probably high before you began.

Others have already discussed moving the sand - all I'd add to that is if it had already become a "nutrient sink", it moved the problem from point A (the original owner's location) to point B - your house.

Live rock can also become a nutrient sink - all that stuff for all that time, absorbed into the rock, and now it's continuing to leach out.

If you used original water, that was already saturated with nitrate, you "imported" the problem.

I respectfully disagree with Andyman concerning moving water to "shorten" the cycle. Beneficial bacteria are not usually suspended in the water column, they colonize on surfaces, so unless the water was pristine, or there are other logistical reasons in favor of moving water with a tank, we don't do it or recommend it. And, if the water was less than ideal, there's no sense in moving bad water.

But that ship has already sailed... but it *might* explain why you're having ongoing problems.

Did you happen to test the water before the tank was moved?

If not - no biggie - the tests taken shortly after the move support the idea that there were problems before you got it.

What I would conclude is that your frequent water changes etc., are helping dilute the stuff that's leaching out of the rocks now - while the level is still remaining higher than desired, if you did not do those changes, you'd likely see it continue to rise... so you're going about it the right way, it's just going to be a matter of time until you can catch it and get ahead of it.

The one thing working against you is that while you're trying to catch up to the nitrates, new ones are being introduced (food, waste).

In a perfect world, if you had known about the issues first, you could have re-cured or "cooked" (no real cooking required!) the rock, meaning, you could have tanked it, either in a fishless tank or other vessel, with water movement and protein skimming, to cycle out all the built-up stuff, over time, while doing water changes etc., to flush out the buildup of stuff. Not adding food (or fish poop) to the mix might have caused this process to happen a bit more quickly.

Since this isn't a perfect world, keep doing what you're doing. Small but frequent water changes to dilute.

What are the rest of your parameters? Including phosphate - chances are that's high too because it happens in a 'nutrient sink' situation.

A Phosban reactor would be fine to remove phosphate - OR you could put other media in it, such as Matrix or De*Nitrate, those are biological media that create a favorable environment for denitrifying bacteria - but it's also important to assess whether you may have a phosphate problem also.

Biowheel or no biowheel - that question has sparked much debate over the years. In my experience, "your mileage may vary" - some folks use them with no problems, others have plenty of problems. Popular thinking is that they "create" nitrate. That's not quite right... your system creates the nitrate, but the biowheel is not geared to break it down into nitrogen gas - that's an anaerobic process.

Since you're having problems, I would probably suggest removing it - BUT, first I'd suggest "replacing" it with a more suitable media and running both for a time, before taking off the wheel.

What you saw happen, was likely caused by a sudden decrease in biological filtration and the system had to reset itself to compensate.

I'd suggest putting some Seachem Matrix or De*Nitrate into your filter, with some Stability (soak it first in Stability) - it should fit in the compartment where your filter cartridge also goes (should be room for both). Leave the biowheel in place for a couple of weeks until the Matrix or De*Nitrate starts to become biologically active, and THEN remove the biowheel. The Seachem media has more surface area for the anaerobic process to happen, which is what breaks down the nitrate.

If you have coral frags that don't appear to be thriving, it could be a number of different things causing that, including nitrate, but a full set of parameters might also glean some information. Low alkalinity, pH, specific gravity, and the presence of phosphate can also make things "unhappy".

If you have other parameters at hand, please post them too so we can take a look at the bigger picture.

Jenn
 
A sulfur denitrator is another means of using biological activity to process nitrate.

Lots of different ways to accomplish the same thing in this hobby ;)

Jenn
 
in your system i would probably go with matrix over de*nitrate. de*nitrate is a zeolite-based media that really only works when you have nitrates already lower than 20 ppm and water flow of less than 50 gph moving through the media. matrix is a biological media made from white lava rock that is so porous it can grow the nitrate consuming anaerobic bacteria inside over time. i use it in all my tanks and it definitely makes a difference once it is established. purigen and chemipure, which are chemical medias, also help alot with removing dissolved organics and may help to keep the nitrates in check between water changes.
 
De*Nitrate and Matrix are made of the same material. De*Nitrate is a smaller particle size.

That is a good point through about Matrix for the rate of flow...on that we agree.

Jenn
 
hey jenn

since im going to be coming by to meet you and pick up that book on sunday i'll bring a water sample.
i'll be able to explain more indepth about my tank.

no i didnt get a chance to test water before i got this tank.
when i went to get it everything was already in buckets waiting for pickup. oh this tank was a mess. stunk to high heavens too.
chris is a rich kid that gets into things because everybody else is doing it.
you know the type im sure. ive done the best i can with the very limited knowledge of this hobby that i have. might have to put off the book i want from you to get what i need to help whip this nitrate nightmare im having. do you have the stuff your talking about on hand jenn?
 
I'm not certain that a sulfur reactor is the way to go in this instance... we can discuss the options, but I do think that while it's taking "forever" to catch up with the issues, I do think you're going about it in the right way - just a few tweaks should help I think.

I was going to suggest bringing in a sample and I'll run a full panel on it - that will give us a bigger picture to work with.

Jenn
 
good deal. i'll bring a big sample to work with before i do my water change. looking forward to meeting you and getting the oppertunity to visit yet another new store. maybe together we can whip this thing.
 
I just posted this in the other Nitrate Reactor thread...

Another option is to use a Phosban reactor with De*Nitrate. This employs the slow flow principle being discussed in the sulfur reactor application - but it's safer insofar as it's not going to risk a pH drop etc., and the other potential risks of using sulfur.

I'm headed to work shortly - I'm going to look at the reactors I have in stock and see if their instructions have any more info on that.

Might be a safer but more efficient alternative - particularly on smaller systems that aren't as forgiving as the system we're using a sulfur reactor on...

Stay tuned.

Jenn
 
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